# Does quantum mechanics debunk materialism?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 4, 2018, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782 "2018-04-04T04:58:45Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/1 "2018-04-04T04:58:45Z")
I have seen answers ranging from “yes it does” to “only the outdated form of materialism”.
It seems like many wooish sites are trying to use quantum mechanics to advance their own doctrines, but I’m not sure about that.
All I really know is that quantum mechanics is complicated but does it disprove materialism?
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/2 "2018-04-04T05:06:34Z")
This is pretty obviously not a factual question. Moved to Great Debates.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/3 "2018-04-04T07:15:01Z")
Most of the people who say this seem to know nothing about quantum mechanics except that it is “spooky.” It kind of goes brain -\> quantum mechanics -\> oogoa booga -\> soul.
Now it is true that the brain works using quantum mechanics.
But so do rocks.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/4 "2018-04-04T08:52:07Z")
As far as I understand it, the arguments summarise to something like:
Materialism implies determinism, which negates any possibility of the (hard to define) religious concept of ‘free will’.
Quantum mechanics undermines the notion of predictable or repeatable determinism, however, I don’t think that necessarily implies that free will is possible, or that materialism itself is false.
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### Author:  [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/5 "2018-04-04T10:00:05Z")
“Quantum anything” is a big favourite in pseudoscience, simply because it’s something very few people are able to question.
If I said something misleading about thermodynamics or electricity, chances are I would be corrected quickly, probably by several people. But there’s such a perception of “quantum-land” as a mysterious place, that its name has become a dumping ground for ridiculous ideas.
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### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/6 "2018-04-04T10:26:55Z")
One impact is that we have had to define things like “matter” more broadly than previously. But in fact we’ve had to do that several times, so if expanding the definition of matter kills Materialism, then it was dead before QM.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/7 "2018-04-04T10:57:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> Most of the people who say this seem to know nothing about quantum mechanics except that it is “spooky.” It kind of goes brain -\> quantum mechanics -\> oogoa booga -\> soul.
Yes, [there is a documentary about this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTUjmBpmjW8).
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/8 "2018-04-04T11:07:46Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#):
>
> All I really know is that quantum mechanics is complicated but does it disprove materialism?
I’m with you. I’ve tried deep breathing and quiet meditation for 20 minutes a day but all I can think about is shopping for all the things.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/9 "2018-04-04T13:57:59Z")
In any question like this, one must define all of the terms. Quantum mechanics is well-defined and understood, so that’s no problem. But what’s your definition of “materialism”? And if you’re going to be bringing in “determinism” and “free will”, then you’d better define those, too.
The big problem with folks making statements like this is that they usually think that they understand “materialism”, “determinism”, and “free will”, but that quantum mechanics is some squishy mystical thing that can mean whatever people want it to mean. But the reality is exactly the opposite.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/10 "2018-04-04T15:01:06Z")
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Ability
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Does quantum mechanics debunk … Belief
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Does quantum mechanics debunk … Failure
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Does quantum mechanics debunk … Fragility
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Frailty
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Freedom
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Does quantum mechanics debunk … Victory
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Wealth
Discuss.
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### Author:  [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/11 "2018-04-04T15:07:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#):
>
> Does quantum mechanics debunk …
>
> Discuss.
You’re being a jerk. Knock it off.
[/moderating]
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/12 "2018-04-04T15:07:42Z")
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> This is pretty obviously not a factual question.
It’s not obvious to me. I thought the OP was asking about what Quantum Mechanics actually claims/teaches, and whether or not it’s compatible with a materialistic view of the universe.
It’s the kind of question that I would have thought someone with a sufficient understanding of quantum mechanics could provide a factual answer to.
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### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/13 "2018-04-04T15:09:20Z")
> [@Bone](#):
>
> You’re being a jerk. Knock it off.
>
> [/moderating]
Bone got here just before me, Xap. But I’ll back him up and say that you should refrain from that level of obnoxiousness in the future.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/14 "2018-04-04T15:59:28Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#):
>
> “Quantum anything” is a big favourite in pseudoscience, simply because it’s something very few people are able to question.
Hell, even the real theoreticians have trouble wrapping their minds around QM and point to the math instead. I remember a YouTube video of some graduate student talking about an esoteric QM point. At the end among his dedications he said, “And I’d like to thank Professor \ for helping me understand as well as anybody _can_ understand this stuff.”
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/15 "2018-04-04T16:05:37Z")
> [@DesertDog](#):
>
> Hell, even the real theoreticians have trouble wrapping their minds around QM and point to the math instead. I remember a YouTube video of some graduate student talking about an esoteric QM point. At the end among his dedications he said, “And I’d like to thank Professor \ for helping me understand as well as anybody _can_ understand this stuff.”
[Professor Richard Feynman?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3ZRLllWgHI)
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### Author:  [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/16 "2018-04-04T16:20:10Z")
Materialism, the way it’s usually understood, is a particular kind of monism (i.e. the doctrine that there is only one ‘fundamental’ substance, as opposed to, e.g., Cartesian dualism, Popper’s three worlds, and other kinds of pluralism). As such, it holds that matter is fundamental, and things like mind, abstracts, concepts, and so on, are ultimately derived. Materialism is opposed to other kinds of monism, like idealism, the view that all that there is, is ultimately mental in nature, or neutral monism, which posits a fundamental substance that is neither material nor mental in nature (and hence, ‘neutral’), and which gives rise to both mental and material properties.
Quantum mechanics is a physical theory. The most popular view is that physical theories are substantially theories of matter, of real stuff out there, and that they’re true because their claims about the stuff out there obtain, at least in an approximate way (scientific realism). Consequently, quantum mechanics may elucidate the nature of matter, but can’t possibly argue against materialism.
This view may be challenged. One may for instance hold that physical theories are not substantially true about the world (scientific antirealism); but then, QM can’t really tell us anything about materialism either, as its truth conditions don’t lie with what the world is ultimately like.
One may also hold that while quantum mechanics is a correct theory of matter, that’s not all there is—although issues like the causal closure of the physical and the question of how different substances could interact make this a difficult to defend position, in my opinion.
So in the end, quantum mechanics is perfectly consistent with materialism; and on the opposite end, one can hold non-materialist views and still be convinced of the truth of quantum mechanics.
So the question really just betrays a mistaken view of the purview of scientific theory: while it is undoubtedly possible to take our best current theories as guiding principles in the creation of metaphysical worldviews, and while they may even impose constraints on such constructions, ultimately, metaphysical questions are not answered by physical theory.
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### Author:  [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/17 "2018-04-04T16:21:55Z")
Not to go too deep into the weeds, of course quantum mechanics is compatible with materialism (or rather, the more general notion of [physicalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism) for which I believe “materialism” is often used as synonym). Materialism supposes that the material world is all there is, and there’s no extra spiritual or subjective world of souls or “life forces” or anything like that. The quantum world is part of the material world the same as rocks and horses. That causation works differently at subatomic scales than we previously understood based on larger objects is really besides the point.
That said, I believe there _is_ a subjective world in our minds, and that’s the world we creatures who experience things actually live in. Reality is filtered through our senses and we all comprehend that reality differently. In my mind, a fictional story about a talking frog and grasshopper preparing for winter is no less real than a thoroughly cited non-fiction account of animals in Africa doing the same thing. Science is important and necessary and tells us what there is to know about the external reality “out there” so that we can improve our lives and our understanding of our place in the universe. But it can’t tell us much about the thoughts and experiences of our own minds, which is after all where most living is actually done. Quantum mechanics, as important as the field is, is kind of irrelevant to the day-to-day life of the mind. So quantum mechanics doesn’t debunk mind-body dualism, either.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/18 "2018-04-04T16:35:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> [Professor Richard Feynman?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3ZRLllWgHI)
No, I’da remembered that name, I’m sure.
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### Author:  [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/19 "2018-04-04T19:11:35Z")
> [@DrCube](#):
>
> Science is important and necessary and tells us what there is to know about the external reality “out there” so that we can improve our lives and our understanding of our place in the universe. But it can’t tell us much about the thoughts and experiences of our own minds, …
I agree and disagree. Science can tell us a lot, maybe absolutely everything or maybe not, about the thoughts and experiences in our minds. But maybe the **way** it tells us is not a way that makes sense according to those very thoughts and experiences.
In other words, maybe learning about our own minds is (for us) one of the most counterintuitive things in the world.
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [April 4, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-quantum-mechanics-debunk-materialism/811782/20 "2018-04-04T19:23:53Z")
> [@DesertDog](#):
>
> Hell, even the real theoreticians have trouble wrapping their minds around QM and point to the math instead.
Which leads to the phrase about QM: “shut up and calculate.”
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