# Does randomness exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2000, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301 "2000-01-17T04:30:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![meara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@meara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meara)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/1 "2000-01-17T04:30:00Z")
Does true randomness exist at any level? Or can the universe be described by some – incredibly large – finite state machine? ---
**Author:** ![meara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@meara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meara)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/2 "2000-01-17T04:42:00Z")
My thoughts: In a sense, this probably can never be answered without proving the existence of such a machine, since otherwise we can never be sure that what looks random to us doesn’t really follow some pattern that is beyond our comprehension. It does, however, bring up some interesting questions about the distinction between science and ‘faith’. It would seem that religions postulate that randomness DOES exist and that it is divinity. Many atheists hold to the contrary idea that everything is ultimately computable given sufficient resources (and that ‘God’ is just a convenient explanation for the yet unexplained). Both however, are based on ‘faith’ in something unproved. I see the following possibilities: A) Randomness exists and is unconscious. There can be no true God since he could not dictate the randomness, only lesser beings who exert some level of control over their surroundings (i.e. we are gods to the rats and some advanced beings are gods to us). B) Randomness exists and is self-aware, i.e. one omnipotent God who is responsible for all which cannot be explained C) Randomness does not exist and thus no self-aware, omnipotent God can exist, since there is ultimately no free will Now this looks like 2:1 against the existence of God. Yet it suggests that I am still better off believing in God since either: A) I will never be able to disprove his existence. B) He really does exist. C) I didn’t have a choice about whether or not to believe in him anyway! Believing gives me at least one chance of being definitively right, whereas the opposite view condemns me to eternal haze. 😉 Of course I’m already seeing a lot of holes, even in that… 😉 Meara ---
**Author:** ![Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nu_Vo_Da_Da)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/3 "2000-01-17T04:44:00Z")
Randomness may or may not exist, but in many cases the sheer volume of factors influencing a particular phenomenum can for all practical purposes render that phenomenum random. In other words, even if it doesn’t exist, it might as well. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/4 "2000-01-17T04:56:00Z")
Gödel once _proved_ that: 1. If you assume that everything is predestined and that no truly “random” events occur, you will never find any contradictions to that assumption; and 2. If you assume that some events aren’t predestined and are truly random, you will never find any contradictions to _that_ assumption either. Kinda makes it hard to test empirically, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/5 "2000-01-17T05:11:00Z")
But if by “state machine”, you mean that future events are not only predestined but are 100% _predictable_ by those of us living within this universe, then quantum mechanics basically says the following: “There are certain kinds of circumstances (an electron fired at a plate with two slits in it that are really close together, for instance) where the outcome cannot be predicted with arbitrary accuracy. Only the probabilities of the various possible outcomes can be known ahead of time. And worse, any attempt to observe the state of the system when it’s part of the way to its outcome (e.g. by shining a light on the electron after it’s passed through the slits, to see which slit it went through) will _alter_ the probabilities of those possible outcomes.” So, unless we stumble upon some deeper understanding of the Universe that allows us to eliminate the uncertainties in quantum-level behavior – which does not seem likely to happen – it is physically impossible to predict exactly what the Universe will do next. Randomness exists. * * * The truth, as always, is more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![meara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@meara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meara)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/6 "2000-01-17T05:45:00Z")
But at almost every juncture of science, even while it has appeared that we have reached the limit, we have somehow managed to delve deeper. I don’t pretend to be a theoretical physicist, but it seems extraordinary to me that we have reached the pinnacle of our understanding. More likely, we are simply on the verge of a radical paradigm shift (ditching ‘particle’ theory, perhaps?). It seems the limit will probably not be our ability to predict subatomic events, but rather our ability to build those predictions up to any sort of macro-meaning. Still it would be incredible to reach a point where even tightly closed systems could be almost perfectly defined. Is it possible that at some level everything IS predictable, and that the only trick is putting it together? Or perhaps that there is some random force that intervenes at a much higher level so that tiny events can be predicted, but never everything? Just kind of wild to ponder… Meara ---
**Author:** ![Sake\_Samurai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sake\_Samurai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sake_Samurai)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/7 "2000-01-17T05:47:00Z")
Purple lymph * * * Hell is Other People. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/8 "2000-01-17T06:25:00Z")
I hear antibiotics will cure that, Sake. ---
**Author:** ![Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cooper)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/9 "2000-01-17T08:09:00Z")
I think the concepts of predictability and randomness need to be distinguished. I believe that random - as such - cannot exist. That isn’t really useful though, since I can’t make predictions that are any more reliable as a result of this belief. ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2000, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/10 "2000-01-17T08:50:00Z")
In quantum mechanics there are truly random events. People have hypothesized about there being an underlying state that we are unable to measure that is really making the system deterministic, but no testable hypothesis of underlying determinism has been supported by experiment that I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/11 "2000-01-18T19:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Purple lymph I knew you were going to say that. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Strainger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strainger/32/244_2.png) [@Strainger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strainger)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/12 "2000-01-18T20:42:00Z")
Well, let’s see here. Heads it exists and tails it doesn’t… Well I’ll be damned, it _does_ exist! ---
**Author:** ![Sake\_Samurai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sake\_Samurai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sake_Samurai)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/13 "2000-01-18T21:02:00Z")
:mad: Grrr. Hey - will everyone stop staring at my lymph! ---
**Author:** ![meara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@meara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meara)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/14 "2000-01-18T21:31:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Strainger: > **Well, let’s see here. Heads it exists and tails it doesn’t… Well I’ll be damned, it _does_ exist!** Brilliant! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kelly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ac91a4/32.png) [@Kelly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelly)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/15 "2000-01-18T22:32:00Z")
I prove the existence of randomness every morning when I look in the mirror. * * * How high is up? ---
**Author:** ![Surgoshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Surgoshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surgoshan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/16 "2000-01-18T22:36:00Z")
Well, if you assume that ever particle effects every other particle and you knew the sum total of all particles in the universe and what they were doing, then yes, it might be possible to predict what will happen. However, I believe that people will screw that over because I don’t think we’re just the sum of chemical reactions. Our irrational, semi-psychotic behavior will, in the event that there’s something out there that knows all about every single particle, cause randomness. So, even if there’s no real randomness, we will cause randomness. Make sense at all? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/17 "2000-01-18T22:54:00Z")
EVEN IF it were possible to predict quantum-level behavior in a completely deterministic fashion, it would still be impossible for us people living here in the universe to predict what every particle will do. The problem is similar to the butterfly-flapping-its-wings-eventually-causes-a-hurricane conundrum. A TINY TINY bit of inaccuracy as to the EXACT positions and velocities of two colliding molecules will result in a somewhat greater error as to their velocities after their collision. This error will be amplified again when either of those two molecules collides with another molecule. Even if you could measure the position of each molecule in a container down to 10^-40 centimeter, and their velocities down to 10^-40 centimeters per second, and you had a computer big enough to store all this position and velocity information and run a simulation of the system forward in time, gas molecules at room temperature collide **millions** of times a second; the errors would accumulate SO RAPIDLY that within one second the system would not resemble your simulation of it at all, except in gross thermodynamic averages. A computer big enough to record the position and velocity of every particle in the universe with that much accuracy would have to be bigger than the universe itself! * * * The truth, as always, is more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/18 "2000-01-18T22:58:00Z")
Tracer said: > [@](#): > > A computer big enough to record the position and velocity of every particle in the universe with that much accuracy would have to be bigger than the universe itself! I believe Lib. wanted this sort of thing for his “if God exists, He must be hyperdimensional” assertion! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/19 "2000-01-18T23:23:00Z")
Poly: Actually, it’s if God is _eternal_, then He must be hyperdimensional. That’s only because _anything_ eternal would have to be. And yes, the hyperdimensional being sees all of space-time, literally inside and out, at once. Just as you see both the inside and outside of a circle on a sheet of paper, the hyperdimensional being sees both the inside and outside of a sphere in space-time. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2000, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301/20 "2000-01-18T23:26:00Z")
Sorry…it was a false memory of your comment! 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-randomness-exist/17301.md?page=2)