# Does religion benefit atheists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471 "2006-09-20T20:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/1 "2006-09-20T20:32:28Z")
For me, it does in the narrow sense, but not in a wider perspective. If believers in religion spend their time worshipping a non-existent God, attending pointless church services, think about specious interpretations of their idiotic Bible, I guess that means that I benefit in comparison to them, and can use the extra hours in my day to compete against them more effectively. But in the larger sense, when I consider how the human race would have progressed if all that energy could have put into something more useful and productive, I lose out. To say nothing about all the wars that stemmed from religious origins–it’s all quite sad. I suppose that I can hope we will someday be a more enlightened species and will find the strength to cast off the shackles of religious thought, but that seems a long ways off to me right now. We’re in such a primitive state of our development, it seems to me. ---
**Author:** ![Beaucarnea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c0e974/32.png) [@Beaucarnea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beaucarnea)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/2 "2006-09-20T20:45:40Z")
Perhaps as a crime deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/3 "2006-09-20T21:01:48Z")
Pointless Specious Idiotic Shackles Primitive Let me know when you’re ready to discuss the subject. Rants belong in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grits_and_Hard_Toast)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/4 "2006-09-20T21:47:06Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] If believers in religion spend their time worshipping a non-existent God, attending pointless church services, think about specious interpretations of their idiotic Bible, I guess that means that I benefit in comparison to them, and can use the extra hours in my day to compete against them more effectively. [/QUOTE] I am curious, how do you use the extra hours in your day to compete more effectively against them? Are you spending hours each day learning to be fluent in multiple languages so you can get an international job? Have you used the time to attain a PHD in your chosen field so you can be known as an expert? Perhaps you have mastered the subjects in school you had a bit of trouble with, so now you have a complete education with no holes or weak points. Or by compete do you mean in a non monetary way? The competition being who is a “better” person for society. Who adds more by being here? In that case have you been spending hours each day in soup kitchen or designing and implementing fundraisers to help those less fortunate? Have you been volunteering your extra hours a day to mentor young people, helping to fill needs in their growing up process? Has all that extra time been put to use helping the oppressed find a better life? Or have you found some other worthy way to benefit society with you extra hours. I really am curious. I would love to know how you are putting all those extra hours each day to work for you so you are more competive. Then when we have totalled up all your accomplishments, others might see how they can be better people if they just followed your example of how to spend all those hours that in past were just wasted worshipping. From your lofty perch of enlightenment, not hampered by the shackles of religious thought, what exactly have you done that can be an inspiration for those that do not have your advantage, that they might break free? Perhaps your words will help us more quickly develop past our current primitive state. So let’s hear it, tell us exactly what you have accomplished with all those extra hours each day so the rest of us will be motivated by your actions to change our ways and the world will be a better place. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/5 "2006-09-20T21:52:45Z")
[QUOTE=kunilou] Pointless Specious Idiotic Shackles Primitive Let me know when you’re ready to discuss the subject. Rants belong in the Pit. [/QUOTE] Ah, but if I’d described the Bible as “holy,” the services as “fascinating,” the interpretations of the Bible as “thoughtful,” etc. you’d have no problem with my festooning those adjectives, I presume? As an atheist, it’s almost redundant of me to include the modifers that I did. I inserted them to clarify what my own views of those things were, but if I hadn’t I would have had to assume that readers would have understood them to be my views. Again, the atheistic point of view is deemed to be a rant, and thus the well is poisoned against serious debate. Why is it so hard for you to show my opinions some nominal respect, even if you disagree with them? You don’t have to be religious or atheistic to engage in this debate, but it helps to understand where people are coming from. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/6 "2006-09-20T21:55:11Z")
[Quote=pseudotriton ruber ruber] To say nothing about all the wars that stemmed from religious origins–it’s all quite sad. [/Quote] Just one spud’s opinion, but if religion did not exist, people would likely have found some other excuse to hang many, if not most, of their wars on. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/7 "2006-09-20T21:58:17Z")
[QUOTE=Grits and Hard Toast] Have you used the time to attain a PHD in your chosen field so you can be known as an expert? [/QUOTE] Now that you ask, yes, I have. But even if I hadn’t, I would have had all those extra hours to devote to something. I’m not claiming that the extra time alwys gets used efficiently, but it’s available if I wanted to, which would give me some sort of edge. If I could sleep half as much, without losing alertness, that would be another advantage. Whatever I’ve accomplished, I was aided (comparatively) by not wasting my time, as I believe most churchgoers do, but I see no need to make this personal. I was asking about atheists in general. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/8 "2006-09-20T22:11:41Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Ah, but if I’d described the Bible as “holy,” the services as “fascinating,” the interpretations of the Bible as “thoughtful,” etc. you’d have no problem with my festooning those adjectives, I presume? As an atheist, it’s almost redundant of me to include the modifers that I did. I inserted them to clarify what my own views of those things were, but if I hadn’t I would have had to assume that readers would have understood them to be my views. [/QUOTE] How about this as a starting point for serious discussion? _For me, it does in the narrow sense, but not in a wider perspective. If believers in religion spend their time worshipping a God, attending church services, think about interpretations of their Bible, I guess that means that I benefit in comparison to them, and can use the extra hours in my day to compete against them more effectively._ > [@](#): > > Why is it so hard for you to show my opinions some nominal respect, even if you disagree with them? Why is it so hard for you to ask questions about religion without using terms like pointless, specious and primitive? Just for future consideration, it’s my opinion that starting a discussion by using loaded language may indicate to some that you are not prepared to treat different opinions with “some nominal respect, even if you disagree with them.” ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/9 "2006-09-20T22:22:12Z")
[QUOTE=kunilou] Just for future consideration, it’s my opinion that starting a discussion by using loaded language may indicate to some that you are not prepared to treat different opinions with “some nominal respect, even if you disagree with them.” [/QUOTE] Absolutely. My take on the OP was “no debate here…just another supercilious atheist, baiting the religious.” I just read down to the end of the thread to see how bad a trainwreck it would be. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/10 "2006-09-20T22:26:25Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] If believers in religion spend their time worshipping a non-existent God, attending pointless church services, think about specious interpretations of their idiotic Bible, I guess that means that I benefit in comparison to them, and can use the extra hours in my day to compete against them more effectively. [/QUOTE] I’m not an atheist, but I freely concede that an awful lot of time gets wasted in the name of religion. Many church services are indeed pointless (or at least they strike me that way), as are a good number of religious discussions, writings, etc. On the other hand, I can see ways in which religious studies, church services, etc. can be of benefit to the people who participate in them, in ways that rub off on the other people (including atheists) with whom they have to share a world: the good emotions, the sense of community/family and mutual support it provides, the instruction in and exhortation to morality and goodness, etc. But a lot depends on what religion they follow and how it’s practiced: what is taught and emphasized; is their “church family” a healthy or disfunctional family, etc. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/11 "2006-09-20T22:26:28Z")
[QUOTE=kunilou] How about this as a starting point for serious discussion? _For me, it does in the narrow sense, but not in a wider perspective. If believers in religion spend their time worshipping a God, attending church services, think about interpretations of their Bible, I guess that means that I benefit in comparison to them, and can use the extra hours in my day to compete against them more effectively._ Why is it so hard for you to ask questions about religion without using terms like pointless, specious and primitive? Just for future consideration, it’s my opinion that starting a discussion by using loaded language may indicate to some that you are not prepared to treat different opinions with “some nominal respect, even if you disagree with them.” [/QUOTE] Actually, that language is fine with me. I have no interest in a trainwreck. let’s amend my OP in favor of your modifier-free language. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/12 "2006-09-20T22:44:00Z")
How about we all just accept that we’re big boys now and can discuss subjects seriously regardless of whether the topic is offensive to ones morality. Personally I can’t think of any way that the existance of religion benefits atheists (outside of the more time thing.) Well, and supposedly algebra was invented so that people could calculate accurately from the stars what direction they needed to face to pray to Mecca. Probably there’s a couple more inventions like that. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/13 "2006-09-20T23:21:13Z")
Do academics benefit the rest of us? For me, it does in the narrow sense, but not in a wider perspective. If liberal arts students want to spend their time writing meaningless dissertations, attending boring classes, thinking about specious answers to idiotic philosophical questions so they can get worthless degrees that don’t lead most of them to jobs, I guess that means that I benefit in comparison to them, and can use the extra hours in my day building relationships within my community, listening to inspiring music and lectures, building houses with Habitat for Humanity, and volunteering at church-supported homeless shelters. But in the larger sense, when I consider how the human race would have progressed if all that energy could have put into something more useful and productive, I lose out. To say nothing about all the money that goes into [laughable](http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/), [useless](http://moebius.psy.ed.ac.uk/), and [poorly designed](http://veritas.arizona.edu/) research (not to mention contentless, jargon-filled literary analyses, bad art, and outdated, unfalsifiable psychological theories)–it’s all quite sad. I suppose that I can hope we will someday be a more enlightened species and will find the strength to cast off the shackles of academic self-aggrandizement, but that seems a long ways off to me right now. We’re in such a primitive state of our development, it seems to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/14 "2006-09-20T23:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] If liberal arts students want to spend their time writing meaningless dissertations, attending boring classes, thinking about specious answers to idiotic philosophical questions […] [/QUOTE] Isn’t this essentially parallel to what you’re doing now, posting to this thread? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/15 "2006-09-20T23:38:52Z")
Bravo. Anyone who spends any time doing something I don’t, is wasting their time, and will fall before my indomitable and merciless power. The fools! Muaahaahaa. ---
**Author:** ![Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grits_and_Hard_Toast)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/16 "2006-09-20T23:42:47Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Now that you ask, yes, I have. But even if I hadn’t, I would have had all those extra hours to devote to something. I’m not claiming that the extra time alwys gets used efficiently, but it’s available if I wanted to, which would give me some sort of edge. If I could sleep half as much, without losing alertness, that would be another advantage. Whatever I’ve accomplished, I was aided (comparatively) by not wasting my time, as I believe most churchgoers do, but I see no need to make this personal. I was asking about atheists in general. [/QUOTE] The OP read to me as if you were talking about you personally. In this sentance you seemed to be talking about yourself. “…that means that I benefit in comparison to them, and can use the extra hours in my day to compete against them more effectively.” But to answer the question in general terms, my point would be the same. I don’t think the majority of churchgoers would spend that time more productively if they didn’t spend time reading the bible or attending services. I think that people who want to be productive will make the time, with whatever schedule they have to work with. So I don’t see non believers having much of an edge over believers. Having a spouse takes up a great amount of time. Children take up an extreme amount of time. But many people can be married and have children and still produce great things. It doesn’t automatically mean that if someone stays single, or choses not to have kids means they will be more productive in the things that really matter. Some might find that having a spouse gives them the stability to try new things that lead to great improvements for mankind. Some might find that having children to support financially gives them incentive to work smarter and the chance to achieve more because lives literally depend on them. Some may find that having children creates in them the desire to work towards improving the world so their children will have a better future. I am just not seeing how more free time would neccessarily equal more great things accomplished. I think there are too many other factors that determine that. I think it might be closer to an equal trade off for the churchgoers. Less free time, but perhaps that time in church is what recharges their batteries, makes life more important, gives them the guidance they need to focus on helping others or a desire to work to improve others’ lives, gives them a reason to put others ahead of themselves. I think going to church must meet some basic need in many people, even if it as simple as a need to follow tradition, or feel like they belong somewhere, or have a place to fall back on when times are rough. Others who don’t go to church have other ways to meet the basic needs that they have. And many of those other ways to meet their needs aren’t going to make the world a better place. If you wanted to argue that the specific thought process some religions expect their followers to use has been detrimental to the human race, I wouldn’t argue that. But from what I read the OP was asking, I don’t see it as a problem of time and energy being unproductively vs productively. The only benefit I see that atheists may have from co-existing with believers is is that those who believe do so because they find it benefits them to do. Those benefits may include a desire to make the world a better place. And those benefits may make the believer a more stable, productive member of society than they would have if they didn’t have religion, so the atheists may benefit in some of those things. I think you would really have to break it down by each individual religion to see if the fact it existed has caused more harm than good for those that aren’t part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/17 "2006-09-20T23:50:22Z")
It probably benefits atheists indirectly. I went to a grad school with Methodist affiliations, so I benefitted there, even though I’m not a Methodist, and there are religious hospitals and religious charitities that help people who aren’t members of the religion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/18 "2006-09-20T23:58:22Z")
A [story](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html) I’ve linked to before : > [@](#): > > RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today. > > According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems. > > The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society. > > It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality. > > Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills. > > The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world. > > “In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies. > > \< snip \> > > The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested. > > Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.” > > He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added. Given that atheists live in the same society as the believers, I’d say no, we don’t benefit. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/19 "2006-09-21T00:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] A [story](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html) I’ve linked to before : Given that atheists live in the same society as the believers, I’d say no, we don’t benefit. [/QUOTE] While I find the original study to be interesting, the conclusion of the twit that wrote the topic/lead sentence for the article should probably be given a long lesson regarding confusing correlation with causation. It is entirely possible that religion has some effect that impairs the working of society. Alternatively, there may be some other process that has resulted in those statistics of which religion is simply a correlate that had nothing to do with the results. The original study does not actually demonstrate the reasons why the numbers appear as they do. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471/20 "2006-09-21T00:05:12Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Isn’t this essentially parallel to what you’re doing now, posting to this thread? [/QUOTE] Oh, my God! \ NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! \ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-benefit-atheists/373471.md?page=2)