# Does religion prove the reality of existance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547 "2015-11-25T15:05:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/21 "2015-11-25T17:32:31Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > :: coughs :: Artemis, ofcourse. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/22 "2015-11-25T17:36:23Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Existence that has no meaning or purpose, of which there can be no understanding but only the illusion thereof, is not different from the absence of existence. Codswallop. Reality doesn’t rely on it being observed or understood. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/23 "2015-11-25T17:37:00Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The argument is called solipsism and isn’t particularly helpful. > > Once you reach the part of the argument where people starting saying things like “what if the whole universe is an atom in a giant’s toenail?” it’s time to say “fuck it dude, let’s go [bowling.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIstclBcO0)” I propose that it be made mandatory that everyone complete (and obtain a passing grade) in a Philosophy 101 course before expressing ANY opinion on the existence or nonexistence of God/gods. 😃 Sure, maybe nothing we think exists exists, and we cannot trust any of our senses. So where does that get you? Assuming that things I see and touch actually are there - and continue to exist when I close my eyes, works for me, and allows me to otherwise live my life. If I’m going to reject all of that, I don’t understand why any particular fairy tale is any more persuasive than any other. I (and most nonreligious folk) don’t understand why the religious believer’s story is any preferable to the believer in the Matrix… For some reason, religious folk seem to equate their belief with proof. Once you point out that error, you can’t argue with that. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/24 "2015-11-25T17:41:37Z")
And - what I think is the critical issue - how would you live your life differently if you DID NOT believe in a certain version of reality? I am pretty confident there is no supernatural being. But I try to be what I consider to be a good person, simply because that is the way I believe people ought to act. Nonreligious folk realize that religious belief is superfluous to ethics. Would the religious person be “less good” if they did not believe in a god? Why, or why not. I’ve often thought it - um - less impressive if someone acts in a certain way in order to obtain a reward or avoid a punishment - whether earthly or supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/25 "2015-11-25T17:42:51Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Codswallop. > Reality doesn’t rely on it being observed or understood. No? I know a cat that might (or might not) disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/26 "2015-11-25T17:54:06Z")
> [@andros](#): > > No? I know a cat that might (or might not) disagree. So how can there be trees lying in the forest, if I didn’t hear them fall, eh? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/27 "2015-11-25T18:01:14Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Codswallop. > Reality doesn’t rely on it being observed or understood. Oh? Who or what is it real to, then? What does “is” mean in such a context? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/28 "2015-11-25T18:55:30Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Artemis, ofcourse. I’m gonna need you to take that back, elf. Ignoring your suicidal heresy in favor of the thread topic: I reject the everything-could-be-a-computer-simulation on account of it being bullshit, by which I mean it’s an proposition with no goddamn evidence to support it, by which I mean it’s bullshit. I mean, hell, it’s conceivable that the Martian Manhunter is sitting beside me right now, invisible, waiting for just the right moment to atomize mewith his eye-blasts, but I’m not gonna set the building on fire to prevent him. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/29 "2015-11-25T19:00:29Z")
Any sufficiently convincing delusion is indistinguishable from reality. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/30 "2015-11-25T19:02:22Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Any sufficiently convincing delusion is indistinguishable from reality. > > Stranger Unless you have evidence that what you are caught in an illusion or illusion, it is foolish to assume you are. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/31 "2015-11-25T19:05:10Z")
Well, if the question is “what if reality is in fact of a radically different nature then how we perceive it or can perceive it?”, then I daresay it behooves the person asking to offer up some idea of what reality _actually_ is and some evidence to support that view, otherwise it’s a waste of time. Certainly the people who wrote the bible don’t have our knowledge of reality at a micro (i.e. atomic) scale or macro (i.e. galactic) scale, and their god is similarly limited. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/32 "2015-11-25T19:14:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How does he know his god isn’t imagined by the guy strapped down in the psycho ward? > edited to add: “Certainty” and “Reality” have two different definitions in the dictionary for a reason. Please do show. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/33 "2015-11-25T19:16:39Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I was talking to a real religious guy who asked me “How do you know you’re not just in the imagination of some person strapped down in a psycho ward? Or part of the Matrix?” I said I didn’t know, and how did he know he wasn’t. He shot back > > My religion makes me certain I’m leading a real life. > > Hhhmmmmmm…Does religion prove the reality of existence? Did you ask him what type of god - the biblical bearded Yaweh type, or the mystical Jacob Boehm type ? (Odds on the first one, but you never know). ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/34 "2015-11-25T19:20:23Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The argument is called solipsism and isn’t particularly helpful. > > Once you reach the part of the argument where people starting saying things like “what if the whole universe is an atom in a giant’s toenail?” it’s time to say “fuck it dude, let’s go [bowling.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIstclBcO0)” Right here 😃 [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/afyUKG61rE4/hqdefault.jpg "Billy Connolly - Solar system") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afyUKG61rE4) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/35 "2015-11-25T19:49:00Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Hhhmmmmmm…Does religion prove the reality of existence? No. Reality, such that it is, is an approximation created by a bunch of neurons in my skull that allows it to interpret the electrochemical transmissions it receives in a useful way. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/36 "2015-11-25T20:00:19Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No. > Reality, such that it is, is an approximation created by a bunch of neurons in my skull that allows it to interpret the electrochemical transmissions it receives in a useful way. Ah, but the neurons are part of that interpretation. So it’s an interpretation of itself, based on itself. Queue moaning… ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/37 "2015-11-25T21:04:51Z")
Some people seem to think that Religion is like a “Get Out of Paradox Free” card in Monopoly. Saying that you’re religious no more disproves the Is It Live Or Is It Memorex quandary in which your existence might be no more than someone else’s dream, or Simulacron-3, or The Matrix than it removes the paradox of the First Mover (“Everything has a Mover. There must be a First Mover, and it’s God!” “Then who moves God?”) ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/38 "2015-11-25T21:23:44Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Some people seem to think that Religion is like a “Get Out of Paradox Free” card in Monopoly. Saying that you’re religious no more disproves the Is It Live Or Is It Memorex quandary in which your existence might be no more than someone else’s dream, or Simulacron-3, or The Matrix than it removes the paradox of the First Mover (“Everything has a Mover. There must be a First Mover, and it’s God!” “Then who moves God?”) Prolly shadows on a cave wall. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/39 "2015-11-25T23:05:59Z")
I am God. I am telling you that you exist. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/40 "2015-11-25T23:13:24Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Oh? Who or what is it real to, then? What does “is” mean in such a context? On second thought, I withdraw my take on this. I’m wrong. Meaning is one thing, reality is not dependent upon it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547.md?page=3)