# Does religion prove the reality of existance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547 "2015-11-25T15:05:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/41 "2015-11-26T01:07:50Z")
Knowing God means also knowing one’s purpose and seeing the illusion many call life. It is the person being lead out of Plato’s cave and given vision of all seeing reality for the first time, including the illusion most are living under (very similar to the Matrix). That person is not able to relate this info to those still bound in the cave as they have no basis to understand it, but for those who are escaping you are their guides. Yes it is that clear. Now what religion has to do with this is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/42 "2015-11-26T01:26:51Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Knowing God means also knowing one’s purpose and seeing the illusion many call life. It is the person being lead out of Plato’s cave and given vision of all seeing reality for the first time, including the illusion most are living under (very similar to the Matrix). That person is not able to relate this info to those still bound in the cave as they have no basis to understand it, but for those who are escaping you are their guides. > > Yes it is that clear. Now what religion has to do with this is beyond me. 1. Which god? 2. You don’t get to dump the “religion” tag off your own belief system just to feel superior-it just doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/43 "2015-11-26T02:00:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Which god? > 2. You don’t get to dump the “religion” tag off your own belief system just to feel superior-it just doesn’t work that way. Um OK and all that 😕😕😕 But I guess if you say so and all that ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/44 "2015-11-26T02:03:54Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I was talking to a real religious guy who asked me “How do you know you’re not just in the imagination of some person strapped down in a psycho ward? Or part of the Matrix?” I said I didn’t know, and how did he know he wasn’t. He shot back > > My religion makes me certain I’m leading a real life. > > Hhhmmmmmm…Does religion prove the reality of existence? But, the guy in the psycho ward/Matrix **is** leading a real life – just not the one he thinks he is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/45 "2015-11-26T02:05:34Z")
[And so what anyway?](http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=257) ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/46 "2015-11-26T02:11:02Z")
It’s called [Presuppositionalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presuppositional_apologetics). You just assume it is true, because otherwise you can’t accept anything. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/47 "2015-11-26T12:13:40Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Seriously. The antithesis of religion is a mechanical deterministic world in which everything, including “the illusion of consciousness”, is without meaning. I fail to see how Christian religion provides a purpose. Let’s assume we all go to heaven for eternal life after our death. What’s the purpose of that? If regular life has no meaning, what is the meaning of eternal life? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/48 "2015-11-26T12:47:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Listen to the Bruggencate/Dillahunty debate to get a handle on how empty the “you can’t know you know, but\* I \*know because God” position really is. This. In particular the last segment is _beautiful_. “Presuppositionalists don’t debate. They claim to have solved the biggest problems in philosophy while asserting that they can’t possibly be wrong and that no other world view can do this; but they never demonstrate the truth of the claim… and I also see no reasonable justifications for why anyone should ever again waste time debating someone who has no interest in debate but wants to merely claim that you’re wrong because they’re convinced that they have a special friend who insures that they cannot be wrong.” > [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > It’s called [Presuppositionalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presuppositional_apologetics). > > You just assume it is true, because otherwise you can’t accept anything. …Except that you can’t accept anything if it’s true, either. It doesn’t actually resolve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/49 "2015-11-26T12:48:16Z")
> [@andros](#): > > No? I know a cat that might (or might not) disagree. Do you know if that cat is still alive?😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/50 "2015-11-26T14:12:50Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > Do you know if that cat is still alive?😃 What if the cat farts before it dies, does the fart stay there regardless ? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/51 "2015-11-26T14:13:55Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > What if the cat farts before it dies, does the fart stay there regardless ? If there is no one to smell it the fart doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/52 "2015-11-26T14:33:26Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I fail to see how Christian religion provides a purpose. Let’s assume we all go to heaven for eternal life after our death. What’s the purpose of that? If regular life has no meaning, what is the meaning of eternal life? What’s Christianity got to do with it? I ain’t Christian and didn’t mention any namebrand religion and was speaking in general terms. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/53 "2015-11-26T14:34:55Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > No, the reality of existence validates religion 🙂 > Seriously. The antithesis of religion is a mechanical deterministic world in which everything, including “the illusion of consciousness”, is without meaning. That no purpose exists anywhere at any time, that instead of any forward-looking reason for anything there is only a backward-looking explanation in the form of prior causation. An Existentialist would begin with assuming all of that, and reply that that leaves us to invent our own meaning, which does not require inventing religion. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/54 "2015-11-26T15:35:08Z")
Happens anyway though. How do meaningless molecules produce a conscious experience of meaning ? oo, tricky. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/55 "2015-11-26T15:38:04Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > How do meaningless molecules produce a conscious experience of meaning ? [Emergently.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Emergence) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/56 "2015-11-26T17:40:43Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Happens anyway though. > How do meaningless molecules produce a conscious experience of meaning ? > oo, tricky. It’s possible they don’t, by a strict definition of “conscious” that requires some kind of spiritual component. I’m okay with saying that when a brain gets sufficiently complex, it can _simulate_ consciousness with enough realism that it is indistinguishable from consciousness, complete with enough pseudorandom influences to move beyond pure determinism, or at least to a level of determinism so complicated that we can’t simulate it. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/57 "2015-11-26T22:56:01Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I fail to see how Christian religion provides a purpose. Let’s assume we all go to heaven for eternal life after our death. What’s the purpose of that? To give glory and hallelujahs to God forever and ever, amen. Also the couple thousand years of irl morality plays was pretty entertaining. You’re not supposed to think about this too much. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/58 "2015-11-26T23:12:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Emergently.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Emergence) Emergence is voodoo if you ask me. Nobody was asking but you have to help humanity where you can 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/59 "2015-11-26T23:17:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s possible they don’t, by a strict definition of “conscious” that requires some kind of spiritual component. I’m okay with saying that when a brain gets sufficiently complex, it can _simulate_ consciousness with enough realism that it is indistinguishable from consciousness, complete with enough pseudorandom influences to move beyond pure determinism, or at least to a level of determinism so complicated that we can’t simulate it. I confess I’m stuck at the bit where we think we’re looking at the real brain instead of a simulation of one. Nobody seems to know what the real one is like, or what it can do. When someone can point to the real brain that lies somewhere outside of conscious experience, and show it creating consciousness, I’ll relax. As all empirical scientific proof happens within conscious experience, it’s going to be tricky to demonstrate scientifically how this real brain that lives outside of consciousness does it’s thing. Watch fun thing [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTxPlUnDQ1U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTxPlUnDQ1U) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/60 "2015-11-26T23:24:45Z")
I was mulling it over today and consider these three “alternate reality” theories: 1. Only one “person” physically exists, as a brain in a vat being given artificial sensory input. 2. Many “persons” physically exist, plugged into a vast _Matrix_-like system and being given artificial sensory input and can interact each each other (or at least get the sense that they can). 3. No “persons” physically exist; reality as we understand it is just a clever computer simulation and “we” are all just similar but individually customized computer objects following pre-programmed rules in a sophisticated version of _The Sims_. Can anyone offer any reason why any of these (or some fourth option) should be preferred? Because if not, isn’t the concept as arbitrary and meaningless as, say, religion itself? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547.md?page=4)