# Does religion prove the reality of existance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547 "2015-11-25T15:05:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/61 "2015-11-26T23:34:15Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > I confess I’m stuck at the bit where we think we’re looking at the real brain instead of a simulation of one. Nobody seems to know what the real one is like, or what it can do. When someone can point to the real brain that lies somewhere outside of conscious experience, and show it creating consciousness, I’ll relax. Well, first you’ll have to define what “outside of conscious experience” means, and how it could be pointed to (which suggest it is something _not_ outside conscious experience). Otherwise, your test is gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/62 "2015-11-26T23:43:38Z")
_There once was a man who said: “God Must think it exceedingly odd If he finds that this tree Continues to be When there’s no one about in the Quad.”_ ``` Langford Reed, The Complete Limerick Book (1924) ``` Reply, anonymous but attributed to Monsignor Ronald Knox \*Dear Sir, Your astonishment’s odd; I am always about in the Quad; And that’s why the tree Will continue to be, Since observed by Yours faithfully, God. \* ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/63 "2015-11-26T23:49:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, first you’ll have to define what “outside of conscious experience” means, and how it could be pointed to (which suggest it is something _not_ outside conscious experience). Otherwise, your test is gibberish. It’s all been said. Just refer to Berkeley and tweak it a bit as necessary if you object to the god stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/64 "2015-11-27T00:01:11Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > It’s all been said. Just refer to Berkeley and tweak it a bit as necessary if you object to the god stuff. This is the first reference to “Berkeley” in this thread. Specifics or a summary, please. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/65 "2015-11-27T01:00:10Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Emergence is voodoo if you ask me. . . . It certainly has aspects of it. But it isn’t wholly bunkum. Sherlock Holmes said, “From a drop of water, a logician could infer the possibility of an Atlantic or a Niagara without having seen or heard of one or the other.” That might apply to a logician…but not to a scientist, because a drop of water doesn’t exhibit the foaming action that turns Niagara Falls or a breaking wave white in color. Foaming up into whiteness is a property of water only in large volumes, under energetic conditions…i.e., an emergent property. Some claims made by invoking “emergence” are woo… But not all. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/66 "2015-11-27T01:26:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It certainly has aspects of it. But it isn’t wholly bunkum. > > Sherlock Holmes said, “From a drop of water, a logician could infer the possibility of an Atlantic or a Niagara without having seen or heard of one or the other.” > > That might apply to a logician…but not to a scientist, because a drop of water doesn’t exhibit the foaming action that turns Niagara Falls or a breaking wave white in color. Foaming up into whiteness is a property of water only in large volumes, under energetic conditions…i.e., an emergent property. > > Some claims made by invoking “emergence” are woo… But not all. Thing is, Holmes could follow his inference and make his way to the Atlantic. You can’t do the same thing with whatever lies outside of consciousness. Or let’s say you can infer a criminal from a footprint. You can catch the criminal, but you will never catch the thing beyond consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/67 "2015-11-27T01:27:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > This is the first reference to “Berkeley” in this thread. Specifics or a summary, please. I’m afraid I have to turn down your request because I’m busy figuring the phenomenal world out. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/68 "2015-11-27T01:36:15Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > I’m afraid I have to turn down your request because I’m busy figuring the phenomenal world out. The Greenwood Convention predicted that would be your response. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/69 "2015-11-27T02:53:20Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Thing is, Holmes could follow his inference and make his way to the Atlantic. You can’t do the same thing with whatever lies outside of consciousness. > Or let’s say you can infer a criminal from a footprint. You can catch the criminal, but you will never catch the thing beyond consciousness. I do not understand what the phrases “outside of consciousness” and “beyond consciousness” mean. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547/70 "2015-11-27T18:11:01Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > It’s all been said. Just refer to Berkeley and tweak it a bit as necessary if you object to the god stuff. I refute it thus! OW!!! FUCK!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-religion-prove-the-reality-of-existance/738547.md?page=3)