# Does reverse racism exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298 "2003-10-19T02:53:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![NeSBiT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@NeSBiT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeSBiT)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/21 "2003-10-19T17:34:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*Wow. Can you please provide the statistical analysis that concludes that blacks (as an example) have such a significant [income disparity](http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/ineqtoc.html) with whites because there are fewer blacks. I can’t wait. \*\* Well, maybe I put that wrong. Maybe the disparity is because blacks work less, and thus get less income. Look [here](http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/p70-72.html). Be sure to look at the months worked and then look at the monthly income. Notice that out of 4 months, whites work an average of 2.6 months while blacks work 2.3 months. That’s a difference of about 9 days. Education. There are more whites with degrees than blacks with degrees. Furthermore, there is a higher percentage of white people who get degrees than of blacks. So, for example, if 9 out of ten degree holders were white, and 1 out of ten were black, then whites would get more of the higher paying jobs and thus there would be an income disparity. Sidenote: Asian Americans actually make more than whites in many cases. Obviously, being a minority has nothing to do with getting a good job. ---
**Author:** ![NeSBiT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@NeSBiT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeSBiT)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/22 "2003-10-19T17:42:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chefguy \* > \*\*😛 😛 😛 > > Isn’t this sort of like telling Ethiopians to “move to where the food is”? Stop it, you’re killin’ me here. > > This is hands down one of the most assinine things I’ve read on this board. > > If you want to argue against affirmative action, try putting forth some cogent arguments instead of conservative dittohead blather. \*\* Now that you mention it, ethiopians should move to where the food is. But more effectively they could stop growing coffee beans and start growing food. “conservative dittohead blather” well, fuck you. I am in no way a conservative or a dittohead. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/23 "2003-10-19T17:49:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*originally posted by \ ***Chefguy** > > This is somewhat disingenuous on your part. I was’n being disingenuous at all. > [@](#): > > And yes, a disproportionate percentage of ethnic groups are indeed hindered from getting an education or acquiring job experience. Are you saying that they’re being hindered because of the color of their skin or their cultural background? Cite? Or maybe they don’t get into schools because of their past educational record? I don’t think its a secret that getting good grades in the inner city “isn’t cool” among young students peers. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/24 "2003-10-19T18:37:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NeSBiT \* > **well, fuck you.** Oh, a potty word…the last stand of the uninformed. Gee, and you were doing so well, too. This probably won’t get you banned, but will probably elicit a warning from the **mods**. ---
**Author:** ![NeSBiT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@NeSBiT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeSBiT)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/25 "2003-10-19T19:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chefguy \* > \*\*Oh, a potty word…the last stand of the uninformed. Gee, and you were doing so well, too. This probably won’t get you banned, but will probably elicit a warning from the **mods**. \*\* Uninformed? Because I used a “potty” word? That seems rather arrogant to say. And I took it as an insult to refer to my post as “blather” or to imply that I am a conservative dittohead. As for being uninformed, how about insulting somene by trying to call them niave and using a word that doesn’t exist to do it (disingenuous, look it up. maybe you were trying for ingenuous) That last part refers to your reply to x-ray vision. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/26 "2003-10-19T19:46:37Z")
Yes, ‘reverse racism’ does exist certainly and I would define it as predujuce by a member of a ‘traditionally persecuted’ group against memebrs of the group that are perceived to of persecuted the first group. On a side note Affirmative Action **is** racism. Being a strong beleiver in social justice, I do believe that the disadvantegd should be helped, but this should not be done on the basis of their race. In my own country (the UK) many of the affirmative action programs that exist in the US would be illegal under laws to stop racial discrimantion. ---
**Author:** ![Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pike)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/27 "2003-10-19T21:06:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Roches \* > \*\*Affirmative action is meant to create equality between groups where it does not currently exist; it is _not_ ‘reverse racism’. Though attacks on affirmative action are thinly veiled as promoting equal treatment of members of different groups, ‘equal treatment’ will do nothing but maintain the status quo. And the status quo is decidedly unequal. \*\* Unfortunately, those who are racist have caused social programs like affirmative action to exist. In its most basic form, affirmative action is racist. It is giving preference to certain people based on their race. I do not think that anyone can argue this point. On the other hand, I realize the need to promote diversity and equality in our country. The main question is do we need to be forced to have programs to promote diversity or equality or can we as a society naturally promote these things. Like I initially stated, our nation has decided to be reactionary rather than dealing with the root of the problem. It is much easier to impose unfair public policy on the citizens rather than reform those social problems that often are the main cause of racism like poverty, abuse, anger, or lack of education. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/28 "2003-10-19T22:37:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NeSBiT \* > \*\*Well, maybe I put that wrong. Maybe the disparity is because blacks work less, and thus get less income. Look [here](http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/p70-72.html). Be sure to look at the months worked and then look at the monthly income. Notice that out of 4 months, whites work an average of 2.6 months while blacks work 2.3 months. That’s a difference of about 9 days. > > Education. There are more whites with degrees than blacks with degrees. Furthermore, there is a higher percentage of white people who get degrees than of blacks. So, for example, if 9 out of ten degree holders were white, and 1 out of ten were black, then whites would get more of the higher paying jobs and thus there would be an income disparity. \*\* What am I missing? Blacks earn less per month than whites for every educational category–every single one–including those where blacks were listed as working more months than whites in the “number of months worked” table (e.g., 3.3 months to 3.2 months for those with bachelor’s degrees). So, let’s see: blacks earn less, regardless of having similar educational levels (as best we can determine from these charts). And blacks have lower monthly incomes, even when they work more than whites in the four months examined. Wanna try again? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/29 "2003-10-19T22:43:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NeSBiT \* > \*\*Well, maybe I put that wrong. Maybe the disparity is because blacks work less, and thus get less income. Look [here](http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/p70-72.html). Be sure to look at the months worked and then look at the monthly income. Notice that out of 4 months, whites work an average of 2.6 months while blacks work 2.3 months. That’s a difference of about 9 days. > > Education. There are more whites with degrees than blacks with degrees. Furthermore, there is a higher percentage of white people who get degrees than of blacks. So, for example, if 9 out of ten degree holders were white, and 1 out of ten were black, then whites would get more of the higher paying jobs and thus there would be an income disparity. \*\* What am I missing? Blacks earn less per month than whites for every educational category–every single one–including those where blacks were listed as working more months than whites in the “number of months worked” table (e.g., 3.3 months to 3.2 months for those with bachelor’s degrees). So, let’s see: blacks earn less, regardless of having similar educational levels (as best we can determine from these charts). And blacks have lower monthly incomes, even when they work more than whites in the four months examined. Wanna try again? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/30 "2003-10-19T22:53:19Z")
Racism is racism, and nobody’s disputing it. But the argument that affirmative action = reverse racism (or racism at all) is a flawed one. If people of all races - outdated a concept as race is - were on level ground from an educational, economic, and every other standpoint, quotas and differing hiring standards would be racist. Unless someone wants to argue that everybody in this country is equal in every respect, I don’t think that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/31 "2003-10-19T23:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*Racism is racism, and nobody’s disputing it. But the argument that affirmative action = reverse racism (or racism at all) is a flawed one. If people of all races - outdated a concept as race is - were on level ground from an educational, economic, and every other standpoint, quotas and differing hiring standards would be racist. Unless someone wants to argue that everybody in this country is equal in every respect, I don’t think that’s the case. \*\* It seems obscene to me that out of two people of different ethnicities, from equally disadavatnged backgrounds, one may be subject to affirmitive action purely on the basis of his ethnicity. Programs that seek to redress the balance between the advantaged and disadvantaged should be colour-blind in their criteria. Also it’s not tackling the problem at it’s roots. Another problem is that it may actually be damaging to the group being distinguished favourably as it can lead to accusations that sucessful individuals of this group only acheived their success on the basis of their colour. Tackling representaive issues is not racism however, I certainly wouldn’t call the Met’s (Metropolitan Police, the police force responsible for London) drive for recruitment aimed at ethnic minorities who are underrepreented in the force (which has negative repecurssions on police work) racist. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/32 "2003-10-19T23:31:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NeSBiT \* > \*\*Uninformed? Because I used a “potty” word? That seems rather arrogant to say. And I took it as an insult to refer to my post as “blather” or to imply that I am a conservative dittohead. As for being uninformed, how about insulting somene by trying to call them niave and using a word that doesn’t exist to do it (disingenuous, look it up. maybe you were trying for ingenuous) > > That last part refers to your reply to x-ray vision. \*\* “Uninformed” because you haven’t read the rules of this forum, for one. Yes, implying that you are a conservative was a leap of logic on my part. However, what you have said so far is a pretty close approximation of what I’ve heard from others of that leaning. And I do consider it blather, which is my perogative. As to the latter part of “uninformed”, please see [this](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary). ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/33 "2003-10-19T23:43:25Z")
::sigh:: the link isn’t working, I see. Try going to [http://www.m-w.com/](http://www.m-w.com/) and looking the word up for yourself. You might also want to check the spelling of “niave”, whatever that’s supposed to mean. ---
**Author:** ![NeSBiT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@NeSBiT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeSBiT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/34 "2003-10-20T00:14:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*What am I missing? Blacks earn less per month than whites for every educational category–every single one–including those where blacks were listed as working more months than whites in the “number of months worked” table (e.g., 3.3 months to 3.2 months for those with bachelor’s degrees). > > So, let’s see: blacks earn less, regardless of having similar educational levels (as best we can determine from these charts). And blacks have lower monthly incomes, even when they work more than whites in the four months examined. > > Wanna try again? \*\* ok. 23,875 whites have bachelor degrees, 1881 blacks have bachelor degrees. Let’s say an upperlevel position opens up in a company and people within the company who hold bachelor degrees apply for it. If 100 people apply, and 93 are white and 7 are black, the odds of a black person getting the job are 7 in 100. (assuming all applicants are equally qualified). This can clearly explain why blacks with the same education and work ethic would make less on average than whites. This isn’t even taking into acocunt the disproportionate number of white engineers and computer gurus, which tend to pay better than other bachelor degrees. ---
**Author:** ![NeSBiT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@NeSBiT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeSBiT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/35 "2003-10-20T00:39:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chefguy \* > \*\*“Uninformed” because you haven’t read the rules of this forum, for one. > > Yes, implying that you are a conservative was a leap of logic on my part. However, what you have said so far is a pretty close approximation of what I’ve heard from others of that leaning. And I do consider it blather, which is my perogative. > > As to the latter part of “uninformed”, please see [this](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary). \*\* oh, i read them, you violated them first. Technically, I should have just reported it, but it didn’t bother me that much so I just responded. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use the SDMB to post any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person’s privacy, or otherwise violative of any U.S. law. And saying someone is a conservative just because what they say on one subject is “a pretty close approximation” of what you’ve heard from conservatives is pretty ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/36 "2003-10-20T01:08:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NeSBiT \* > \*\*oh, i read them, you violated them first. Technically, I should have just reported it, but it didn’t bother me that much so I just responded. > > You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use the SDMB to post any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person’s privacy, or otherwise violative of any U.S. law. > > And saying someone is a conservative just because what they say on one subject is “a pretty close approximation” of what you’ve heard from conservatives is pretty ignorant. \*\* You’re absolutely right in everything you’ve ever said in your entire life, up to and including the above. Ta-ta. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/37 "2003-10-20T01:27:58Z")
> [@](#): > > And HBCUs may admit whites, but they sure as hell don’t admit whites who have test scores lower than their standards for admission. And you know this…how? Can you provide a cite to back this assertion? What you seem to lack an appreciation for is history, **NeSBIT**. This isn’t an uncommon deficiency in those who hold your view, unfortunately. You seem to be content looking at the current situation with little regard to the events leading up to the present. Not surprisingly, you fall into the fallacy of comparing apples to oranges. HBCUs don’t need a “white quota”. This would be patently obvious if you had a true appreciation for why HBCUs exist in the first place (here’s a hint: it’s not because blacks wanted to exclude whites). So why do whites need any kind of “leg up”? Why do you feel the need two compare two groups of people who have vastly different histories? If you look at colleges and universities all over the country, you’ll see very few schools where the majority of the students are not white. I went to a HBCU for vet school and the _majority_ of the students in my class were _white_, for pete’s sake. How can this happen if whites face the oppression you’re whining about? Can you provide statistics that suggest significant chunks of the white population are being systematically discriminated against by black people (because of course they’re the only minority group that benefits from programs such as AA…of course)? ---
**Author:** ![NeSBiT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@NeSBiT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeSBiT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/38 "2003-10-20T02:25:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by you with the face \* > \*\*And you know this…how? Can you provide a cite to back this assertion? > > What you seem to lack an appreciation for is history, **NeSBIT**. This isn’t an uncommon deficiency in those who hold your view, unfortunately. You seem to be content looking at the current situation with little regard to the events leading up to the present. Not surprisingly, you fall into the fallacy of comparing apples to oranges. > > HBCUs don’t need a “white quota”. This would be patently obvious if you had a true appreciation for why HBCUs exist in the first place (here’s a hint: it’s not because blacks wanted to exclude whites). So why do whites need any kind of “leg up”? Why do you feel the need two compare two groups of people who have vastly different histories? > > If you look at colleges and universities all over the country, you’ll see very few schools where the majority of the students are not white. I went to a HBCU for vet school and the _majority_ of the students in my class were _white_, for pete’s sake. How can this happen if whites face the oppression you’re whining about? > > Can you provide statistics that suggest significant chunks of the white population are being systematically discriminated against by black people (because of course they’re the only minority group that benefits from programs such as AA…of course)? \*\* Ok. The majority of students are white, quite simply because the majority of the population is white. Are white people being systematically discriminated against by black people? No, we’re being discriminated against by institutions, which are made up of all races including whites. And there are other minority groups who benefit from programs such as aa, although the asians seem not to need it for some reason. And if you try and argue that asians don’t have a history of being discriminated against then just think back to WWII. And yes, HBCUs don’t need a white quota, they don’t need a quota at all, like every other educational institution. As far as history, I am familar with history. In fact, [here](http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/Cahn.html) is a little history of affirmative action for you. You’ll notice that the DoL modified equal opportunity in '71 during the Nixon era. It was then that the idea of having a representative amount of minorites was introduced. And try not to be so insulting, “lack of appreciation for history”, how do you know what I appreciate? And it was unneccessary to call me deficient. As for the whole apples to oranges thing, sounds like something a racist would say. ---
**Author:** ![escapol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90ced4/32.png) [@escapol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/escapol)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/39 "2003-10-20T03:30:59Z")
First, I think the OP’s question is one of semantics. Yes, racism is racism, no matter who perpetrates it. The term ‘reverse racism’ is just a colloquial phrase to imply racism practiced by the minority against the majority (as other posters have said). I don’t think the term itself trivializes the racism present. OP said: > [@](#): > > We often times allow members of minority groups voice racist and ignorant statements about the white culture without any form of outrage being expressed. It is as if it is okay for some races to practise racism but not others. I’d like to see some examples of what you’re talking about here. If a Native American stands up and says, ‘White people came here and killed and betrayed my ancestors. I’m a little nervous around them and I don’t trust the government.’ I would not consider that a racist statement. What is racist is when you base your fear, contempt, hatred of a race without reason. Most minority groups in the USA have a reason to dislike the white majority. It’s called history. Is that feeling right? No. Is it understandable? Yes. Should certain accomodations be made to groups we’ve beat down in the past? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298/40 "2003-10-20T03:34:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NeSBiT \* > well, fuck you. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chefguy \* > This probably won’t get you banned, but will probably elicit a warning from the **mods**. **Moderator’s Notes:** **NeSBit** , cool it. (Not so much the “potty” words as the “flame another poster outside the Pit” words, you understand.) **Chefguy** , please don’t try to play “junior Mod”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-reverse-racism-exist/208298.md?page=3)