# Does Ron Paul's example refute libertarianism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216 "2011-12-23T22:04:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/1 "2011-12-23T22:04:57Z")
The issue being the racism and other alleged troublesome content of the various newsletters published under his name, and his response to confrontation. A pretty good summary of the issue here: > **[WATCH: Ron Paul Promotes Newsletters In '80s Interview](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ron-paul-newsletter-interview_n_1167645)** > > WATCH: Ron Paul Promotes Newsletters In '80s Interview I’m trying to imagine Howard Roarke saying “I didn’t write them, I didn’t read them”. If Ron Paul cannot exemplify the qualities Rand prized (and I would argue he’s missing by a mile) does that call any of the basic tenets of the philosophy of libertarianism into doubt? Should it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/2 "2011-12-23T22:09:02Z")
Yes. This completely and utterly refutes not only Libertarianism, but everything Ayn Rand ever wrote wrt Objectivism. Good catch! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/3 "2011-12-23T22:09:26Z")
small-l libertarianism isn’t based on Ayn Rands objectivism. Big-L Libertarianism isn’t based on anything. Aside from demonstrating hypocrisy and dishonesty on his part, I don’t see how this reflects on the broader political philosophy and ideology. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/4 "2011-12-23T22:10:43Z")
I’m a left of center Democrat so maybe I’m not qualified to speak on this, but I would say that it’s more or less the opposite. Rather than calling the tenets of Libertarianism into doubt, it calls Ron Pauls adherence to those tenets into doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/5 "2011-12-23T22:17:48Z")
Maybe you guys could humor me a little more and flesh it out? Perhaps, first, I should used the label “objectivism”, and secondly, it’s been a while since I read the books, so I don’t claim a breadth of knowledge here. I was under the impression that one of the underpinnings was a fairly strong belief in the importance of individual integrity, and in some ways it seemed to be a necessary condition for the philosophical structure to stand. Roark seemed the natural embodiment of that ideal. I’m really not trying to do a simple ‘gotcha’ here, but there does seem to be an incongruence between Paul’s choices and libertarian’s reliance upon 'individuals should be responsible for their choices". What am I missing or oversimplifying? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/6 "2011-12-23T22:23:26Z")
davidm - well, if enough of those who proclaim/carry the standard demonstrate frequently enough their inability to live by its precepts, whether it’s my OP or “Family Values” pols having affairs, at some point does that demonstrate that their theories of human values/behavior demonstrate a high value for what my kids would call “fail”? (Going shopping for bit, check in later. Thanks for your responses) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/7 "2011-12-23T22:24:45Z")
All ideas stand on their own, not on the behaviors of any would-be adherents. How could you think otherwise? If someone fails to uphold his beliefs, that’s an indictment of the person, not the beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/8 "2011-12-23T22:30:49Z")
I think John Mace has the definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/9 "2011-12-23T22:33:27Z")
Missed the edit window… First off, it has to be established that RP actually wrote or approved of the content in question. That has not been done. Even your own article says it’s most likely that content was written by someone else. Secondly, I can’t see that a person not living up to the standards of a fictional, idealized character has any bearing whatsoever on the issue. Thirdly, I don’t even know that HR, the fictional character, would have said anything much differently, if it’s true. Fourthly, I think we need to see more of a record of racism (than what we have here) in someone to say that person is a racist. Has Ron Paul said or done anything over the years that would justify that accusation against him? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/10 "2011-12-23T22:55:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Has Ron Paul said or done anything over the years that would justify that accusation against him? [Unless this is artful pandering, no.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8S8N2OG7sU). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/11 "2011-12-23T23:00:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > [Unless this is artful pandering, no.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8S8N2OG7sU). That might be considered pandering, depending on who the audience was, but he has a principalled stance against drug laws, and I don’t see a problem emphasizing the disproportionate impact those laws have on minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/12 "2011-12-23T23:25:34Z")
It’s like asking if Fred Phelps refutes Christianity. Nope: it only exposes Phelps (and, per the OP, Ron Paul) as deviators from the theology/philosophy they publicly claim to support. Show me any significant body of thought that hasn’t attracted one or two (or more!) heretics. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/13 "2011-12-24T02:03:17Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > I’m trying to imagine Howard Roarke saying “I didn’t write them, I didn’t read them”. > If Ron Paul cannot exemplify the qualities Rand prized (and I would argue he’s missing by a mile) does that call any of the basic tenets of the philosophy of libertarianism into doubt? Should it? FYI, Rand despised [libertarians](http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=faq_index#obj_q3) > [@](#): > > Above all, do not join the wrong ideological groups or movements, in order to “do something.” By “ideological” (in this context), I mean groups or movements proclaiming some vaguely generalized, undefined (and, usually, contradictory) political goals. (E.g., the Conservative Party, which subordinates reason to faith, and substitutes theocracy for capitalism; or the “libertarian” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.) To join such groups means to reverse the philosophical hierarchy and to sell out fundamental principles for the sake of some superficial political action which is bound to fail. It means that you help the defeat of your ideas and the victory of your enemies. > > Ayn Rand, “What Can One Do? Libertarians tend not to mention this. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/14 "2011-12-24T02:15:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > All ideas stand on their own, not on the behaviors of any would-be adherents. How could you think otherwise? If someone fails to uphold his beliefs, that’s an indictment of the person, not the beliefs. OTH, if Michele Bachman’s husband falls out of the closet, and all of his therapeutic claims of ‘straightening out’ gay clients are found to be frauds, and 100 conservative congresscritters are outed every year, doesn’t that begin at some point to become an indictment of their ideas about homosexuality being a choice? (Just the clearest example I could think of at the moment). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/15 "2011-12-24T02:23:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Missed the edit window… > > First off, it has to be established that RP actually wrote or approved of the content in question. That has not been done. Even your own article says it’s most likely that content was written by someone else. > > Secondly, I can’t see that a person not living up to the standards of a fictional, idealized character has any bearing whatsoever on the issue. > > Thirdly, I don’t even know that HR, the fictional character, would have said anything much differently, if it’s true. > > Fourthly, I think we need to see more of a record of racism (than what we have here) in someone to say that person is a racist. Has Ron Paul said or done anything over the years that would justify that accusation against him? Here’s a Reuters article that includes a link to a PDF of a direct mailing with Paul’s signature, and a reference to “my training as a physician”, which talks about a coming race war, along with a lot of other crazy, crazy nonsense. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/23/us-usa-campaign-paul-plots-idUSTRE7BM03320111223](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/23/us-usa-campaign-paul-plots-idUSTRE7BM03320111223) At some point, you have to be responsible for material that bears your name, has your signature, and references yourself and your medical training in the first person. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/16 "2011-12-24T02:28:27Z")
A few outliers clearly don’t constitute negation of an idea, but isn’t there a tipping point? Doesn’t Fred Phelps’ example lead us to conclusions, not about the whole of Christian belief, but about the validity of his particular beliefs? If the implementation of ideas in the real world and their outcomes don’t reflect upon the validity of beliefs, what does? What does ‘beliefs stand on their own’ mean? I mean, I’d live in Lennon’s “Imagine” if I could, but it is a fantasy, if a pretty one. Aren’t Cuba, and the USSR, and China, a basis to consider the soundness of Marx’s ideas? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/17 "2011-12-24T03:03:10Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Here’s a Reuters article that includes a link to a PDF of a direct mailing with Paul’s signature, and a reference to “my training as a physician”, which talks about a coming race war, along with a lot of other crazy, crazy nonsense. > > [In ad for newsletter, Ron Paul forecast "race war" | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/23/us-usa-campaign-paul-plots-idUSTRE7BM03320111223) > > At some point, you have to be responsible for material that bears your name, has your signature, and references yourself and your medical training in the first person. Don’t you? I read the PDF earlier. There’s no detail as to why he thinks there will be race war. For all we know, he thinks that blacks are being suppressed and that will lead to a race war. Not seeing that as inherently racist, especially in light of the video posed by WllFanaby. To me, this speaks of his nuttiness. It’s sort of a survivalist mentality that sees any non-Libertarian type government as on the slippery slope to Stalinism. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/18 "2011-12-24T03:25:14Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > A few outliers clearly don’t constitute negation of an idea, but isn’t there a tipping point? . . . Well, sure. Think of it like “statistical significance.” > [@](#): > > Aren’t Cuba, and the USSR, and China, a basis to consider the soundness of Marx’s ideas? Exactly. Pointing to, say, Albania, and without any other data, we wouldn’t have enough to go on. But when the gigantic majority of communist nations are either basket cases or have modified Marxism beyond recognition, then…yeah. Now, many of us happen to believe that this tipping point has, in fact, been passed with regard to the libertarian philosophy. Lots of old threads on the topic. Many people (me, for instance) believe that Ron Paul’s nuttiness is typical of the libertarian idea, rather than atypical. Sane libertarians seem to be in a minority. (Just as any decent body of thought will inevitably attract one or two nut-cases, so, alas, many rotten ideas will, in a quirky way, attract a few good people. I once knew a very nice, friendly, genteel, well-spoken Holocaust denier! His reasoning was that the German people are so warm and friendly and hospitable, they simply couldn’t have done anything that mean!) ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/19 "2011-12-24T03:31:14Z")
John Mace, I’d be interested in your expanding upon the ‘all ideas stand on their own’ idea. Specifically, (from anybody who’d like to take a crack at it, of course) what ideas from Objectivism or Libertarianism do you find particularly compelling to you, and upon what basis did you evaluate them? I’m especially interested in a brief synopsis of what these philosophies believe about human nature. That’s really the exploration I was trying to start with my OP. One of issues I think I have with Libertarianism, as I understand it, is that I have a rather mistrustful view of human nature in some ways, so I am frequently in favor of oversight and regulation, because I know humans can be venal, greedy, and damaging to the common good for their own gain. Libertarians seem to be generally quite opposed to regulation, and seem to think it is unneccessary, either because they believe there is some other mechanism that will suffice rather than regulation, or for other reasons I cannot fathom. I see mostly bad things occuring in the absence of checks and balances. I tried to utilize HR in my OP because he was, indeed, an idealized representation from Rand. Wasn’t she trying to say something about her beliefs about human nature in HR? Am I mistaken in trying to make her writings somehow relevent to the issue I’m trying to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/20 "2011-12-24T05:37:07Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > FYI, Rand despised [libertarians](http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=faq_index#obj_q3). Libertarians tend not to mention this. Why would we? Do liberals tend not to mention what John Ringo thinks of them? And he’s not even dead! > [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > One of issues I think I have with Libertarianism, as I understand it, is that I have a rather mistrustful view of human nature in some ways, so I am frequently in favor of oversight and regulation, because I know humans can be venal, greedy, and damaging to the common good for their own gain. Whereas we are in favour of not granting politicians excessive control over the lives of others, because we also know humans can be venal, greedy and damaging to the common good for their own gain, and extraordinary powers grant extraordinary capacity to do harm. We agree that _some_ oversight and regulation is necessary, but things like the TSA, where a government agent is permitted to use threats to coerce random people into succumbing to sexual assault, are obscene. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216.md?page=2)