# Does Ron Paul's example refute libertarianism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216 "2011-12-23T22:04:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/21 "2011-12-24T13:55:27Z")
I’m sick of the “he didn’t really write it” excuse. The newsletter bore his fucking name. He has editorial responsibility. For years he published racist drivel and nobody ever pointed it out to him? He never thought to think “Gee, maybe I better publish a denial of the stuff that I don’t endorse and have someone review articles for objectionable material.” No, he never did that so one has to assume that to some degree, these incendiary sentiments reflected his own views. Does he refute libertarianism? No, but he doesn’t need to. Libertarianism is an intellectually and morally bankrupt philosophy and is self-refuting. You don’t necessarily have to be a moron and an asshole to be a libertarian, but it sure as hell helps. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/22 "2011-12-24T15:41:52Z")
What is the link between libertarianism and racism? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/23 "2011-12-24T16:16:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I read the PDF earlier. There’s no detail as to why he thinks there will be race war. For all we know, he thinks that blacks are being suppressed and that will lead to a race war. Not seeing that as inherently racist, especially in light of the video posed by WllFanaby. > > To me, this speaks of his nuttiness. It’s sort of a survivalist mentality that sees any non-Libertarian type government as on the slippery slope to Stalinism. Sure. If you want to regard this as separate from the content of the newsletters, which were more explicit in regards to their racism. So, in summary, the things that just had his name on them - explicitly racist. The thing with his signature - questionably racist. I can see why you’d be dubious about acknowledging racist beliefs on his part. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/24 "2011-12-24T16:17:49Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’m sick of the “he didn’t really write it” excuse. The newsletter bore his fucking name. He has editorial responsibility. For years he published racist drivel and nobody ever pointed it out to him? He never thought to think “Gee, maybe I better publish a denial of the stuff that I don’t endorse and have someone review articles for objectionable material.” No, he never did that so one has to assume that to some degree, these incendiary sentiments reflected his own views. You mad, bro? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/25 "2011-12-24T17:02:45Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > John Mace, I’d be interested in your expanding upon the ‘all ideas stand on their own’ idea. Specifically, (from anybody who’d like to take a crack at it, of course) what ideas from Objectivism or Libertarianism do you find particularly compelling to you, and upon what basis did you evaluate them? I’m especially interested in a brief synopsis of what these philosophies believe about human nature. That’s really the exploration I was trying to start with my OP. > One of issues I think I have with Libertarianism, as I understand it, is that I have a rather mistrustful view of human nature in some ways, so I am frequently in favor of oversight and regulation, because I know humans can be venal, greedy, and damaging to the common good for their own gain. Libertarians seem to be generally quite opposed to regulation, and seem to think it is unneccessary, either because they believe there is some other mechanism that will suffice rather than regulation, or for other reasons I cannot fathom. I see mostly bad things occuring in the absence of checks and balances. > I tried to utilize HR in my OP because he was, indeed, an idealized representation from Rand. Wasn’t she trying to say something about her beliefs about human nature in HR? Am I mistaken in trying to make her writings somehow relevent to the issue I’m trying to understand? While I find the arguments in favor of individual liberty to be very compelling, I think that both Libertarianism and Objectivism\* misunderstand the nature of human beings-- we don’t value liberty above all other things at all times. Rand treated “man” as if he had sprung forth from the brow of Jupiter, fully formed and with no evolutionary history. The fact is, we are social animals. Always have been. Denying that aspect of our nature is simply unscientific. And as a scientist, I look first to science for answers about the real world. Rand would claim to be doing the same thing, but it’s like she had never known about the science of evolution. Still, I think her idea of selfishness is largely correct, although one needn’t see evil in every act of altruism in the world. I do think humans, living in a modern society, place a very high value on personal liberty, and so I hold Libertarianism up as a starting point. A sort of default position from which our government should stray only when there is a compelling interest to do so. I’d always prefer the more Libertarian approach to problem solving unless it is shown to be completely unworkable. For instance, I prefer mandatory 401k accounts to a system like our Social Security, even if we need to keep a Social Security type system for those who are truly needy. That is, don’t nationalize the whole system because some small percent can’t handle their own affairs. \*And as much as Rand would claim the two are very different, any real differences they have is minor ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/26 "2011-12-24T17:02:54Z")
I think it impeaches his integrity either way. “I didn’t write it/know about it/have anything to do with it/just cashed the checks, readers weren’t getting Ron Paul product” = dishonesty. “I wrote it and now I’m denying it” = obvious problems… John, thanks for your answer. It seems reasonable middle ground. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/27 "2011-12-24T18:17:16Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > I think it impeaches his integrity either way. “I didn’t write it/know about it/have anything to do with it/just cashed the checks, readers weren’t getting Ron Paul product” = dishonesty. > “I wrote it and now I’m denying it” = obvious problems… How about just believing that people should be allowed to say stupid, offensive things, even if they are stupid and offensive? That would be perfectly in line with his politics, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/28 "2011-12-24T18:26:54Z")
If Ron Paul isn’t living upto to Libertarian standards, it weakens his personal advocacy for it, but not necissarily the case for Libertatarianism its self. Just as Rand Paul’s bigotry on gay marriage demonstrates him to be an evil, surpressive, jackass, no better than Jim Crow bigots. Ron Paul’s son cares not for liberty. Just as ronnie failed miserablh at personal responability in this case. Supporting blatently oppressive things shows an individual is not actually arguing for liberty, but trying to use the concept to make their personal list of unliked things sound nicer. Also if Ronnie can’t take personal responsability, and monitor things publish in his name with his consent, what does that say for the rest of us? However every creed has its hypocrites, doesn’t mean the creed is bad, but a sufficant number does demonstrate it unworkable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/29 "2011-12-24T18:38:48Z")
Maybe I’m being too tolerant, but I can generally forgive people over a certain age for not understanding the nature of homosexuality. They grew up in age when science told them it was a mental disorder. Having said that, I would not forgive anyone, regardless of his age, for being a racist. I can’t put my finger on it, but somehow I don’t think those two are the same. However… Ron Paul isn’t just any old someone. He’s a medical doctor, and he should be able to update his understanding of homosexuality based on the latest science. It’s not like it’s cutting edge or anything, being at least 3 decades old now. His inability to accept homosexuality as “normal” speaks to a willingness to subvert reason to emotion. Not very Libertarian of him, and especially not very Objectivist of him. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/30 "2011-12-25T00:08:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > However… Ron Paul isn’t just any old someone. He’s a medical doctor, and he should be able to update his understanding of homosexuality based on the latest science. It’s not like it’s cutting edge or anything, being at least 3 decades old now. His inability to accept homosexuality as “normal” speaks to a willingness to subvert reason to emotion. Not very Libertarian of him, and especially not very Objectivist of him. The man doesn’t even believe in evolution. So much for respecting and using reason. And he is a “right-to-lifer.” So much for keeping the government out of people’s personal lives. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/31 "2011-12-25T00:15:41Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The man doesn’t even believe in evolution. So much for respecting and using reason. And he is a “right-to-lifer.” So much for keeping the government out of people’s personal lives. I was going to ask you for a cite, but I found one pretty easily. And to think, he’s an Episcopalian. Not a religion known for being creationist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/32 "2011-12-25T00:30:56Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The man doesn’t even believe in evolution. So much for respecting and using reason. And he is a “right-to-lifer.” So much for keeping the government out of people’s personal lives. “Government should stay out of our personal lives, except for women’s uteruses where goverment belongs!” Read that somewhere, good summation. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/33 "2011-12-25T03:03:28Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > “Government should stay out of our personal lives, except for women’s uteruses where goverment belongs!” > Read that somewhere, good summation. If you define life as beginning with conception, his right-to-life position is completely compatible with his libertarianism.. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/34 "2011-12-25T04:17:22Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you define life as beginning with conception, his right-to-life position is completely compatible with his libertarianism.. Using a female’s body against her will is a libertarian position? If he can justify invasive goverment meddling in one’s own body, why are tax dollars so much more sacred? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/35 "2011-12-25T08:14:59Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > davidm - well, if enough of those who proclaim/carry the standard demonstrate frequently enough their inability to live by its precepts, whether it’s my OP or “Family Values” pols having affairs, at some point does that demonstrate that their theories of human values/behavior demonstrate a high value for what my kids would call “fail”? I hope you’re not a believer in any religion in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/36 "2011-12-25T10:57:13Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I hope you’re not a believer in any religion in that case. I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/37 "2011-12-25T13:46:45Z")
I am not a libertarian, and I hate the philosophy of Ayn Rand. However, I think Ron Paul’s example only discredits libertarianism because because he lacks the courage and the honesty to acknowledge opinions that he does hold, and which he expressed when he did not think he would become a national politician. Ayn Rand was opposed to the civil rights movement and the civil rights legislation. Libertarianism sees the concept of “freedom” through the eyes of business owners, employers, and investors. It is indifferent to anyone else. The civil rights legislation required restaurant, motel, and hotel owners to serve blacks, even when they did not want to. This was a violation of private property rights, so a libertarian would oppose it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/38 "2011-12-25T13:48:19Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The man doesn’t even believe in evolution. So much for respecting and using reason. And he is a “right-to-lifer.” So much for keeping the government out of people’s personal lives. I doubt that many national Republican politicians genuinely disbelieve in evolution. Those who pretend that they do are pandering to the Republican base. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/39 "2011-12-25T14:04:18Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Why would we? Exactly. There are very good reasons not to mention it since libertarianism claims to be based on Ayn Rand’s writings and her philosophy of Objectivism. I recall watching the Libertarian Party candidate back in -must have been '92 or '96- giving a speech shown on CSPAN going on about Rand’s use of Aristotle’s A is A identity axiom as one of the fundamental parts of Objectivism and couldn’t help but chuckle knowing what she thought of them, some more of her comments on [them](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_and_Objectivism#Rand.27s_view_of_libertarians): > [@](#): > > Rand rejected any affiliation with the libertarian movement and many other Objectivists have done so as well.[13] > > Rand said of libertarians that: > > “They are not defenders of capitalism… I’ve read nothing by a Libertarian (when I read them, in the early years) that wasn’t my ideas badly mishandled—i.e., had the teeth pulled out of them—with no credit given.”[12] > > Responding to a question about the Libertarian Party in 1976, Rand said: > > “The trouble with the world today is philosophical: only the right philosophy can save us. But this party plagiarizes some of my ideas, mixes them with the exact opposite—with religionists, anarchists and every intellectual misfit and scum they can find—and call themselves libertarians and run for office.”[14] Ayn would be rolling over in her grave if she knew how successful Libertarians have been at co-opting her, such that the philosophies are often conflated, witness the OP: > [@](#): > > I’m trying to imagine Howard Roarke saying “I didn’t write them, I didn’t read them”. > If Ron Paul cannot exemplify the qualities Rand prized (and I would argue he’s missing by a mile) does that call any of the basic tenets of the philosophy of libertarianism into doubt? Should it? You shouldn’t be looking for it exemplifying any qualities Rand prized or seeing it come out of Howard Roarke’s mouth; Rand categorically rejected Libertarianism as a bastardization of her philosophy mixed with ideals the very antithesis of what she stood for. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216/40 "2011-12-25T15:43:59Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Ayn Rand was opposed to the civil rights movement and the civil rights legislation. Libertarianism sees the concept of “freedom” through the eyes of business owners, employers, and investors. It is indifferent to anyone else. The civil rights legislation required restaurant, motel, and hotel owners to serve blacks, even when they did not want to. This was a violation of private property rights, so a libertarian would oppose it. Not exactly true. She would have objected to any laws that discriminated against racial groups. But yes, AR and most Libertarians object to coercing individuals into serving customers that they don’t want to serve, for whatever reason. > [@](#): > > I doubt that many national Republican politicians genuinely disbelieve in evolution. Those who pretend that they do are pandering to the Republican base. I’m certain you’re wrong about that. Refusal to accept evolution as fact is very common in the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ron-pauls-example-refute-libertarianism/607216.md?page=3)