# Does science fiction fear democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 21, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719 "2011-05-21T21:12:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/41 "2011-05-23T02:08:54Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Ah, yes. You actually did write to her. I thank you, and I ask you to pass along my admiration for her work and her style. God knows I can’t do it. I’ve tried. I can’t even do fanfic, it winds up flat and with a single voice. > That’s where it started. It’s not a bad place to start, and it’s certainly different now. God knows I prefer it over TNG era Klingon inanity. It’s not that it is fanfic, it’s not that it has remained fanfic. It’s just that I can see the roots of it going back to a medical officer in a velour miniskirt and a noble Klingon officer fantasy. She gets the tone beautifully in Shards of Honor. Different, but both strong willed, but from different worlds entirely. So few people can pull that off. > > It’s like saying I can see the roots of the Federation series being based on Gibbons’ History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Or Battlestar Galactica in Mormon theology. Or, of course, Star Trek’s roots in Hornblower. > > It’s all but gone once Miles shows up. But the first bit, I can see the set and the uniforms and makeup. And I’m certainly not complaining at all. It just bleeds through a tiny bit, enough for me to see the old velour uniforms. > > (Feel free to share my statements with her, I hope she understands what I had to say is not disparagement or criticism.) You should join the mailing list, we are a lively bunch - don’t even have a goat or squid 😃 > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > And, in the spirit of the staircase, I should add that I hesitated between ‘drabble’, ‘fantasy’ and ‘fanfic’ in the original post, and chose ‘fanfic’ as the most respectful of the possibilities. Fantasy may have been more appropriate, but it struck me as slightly denigrating. > > Further, if you can convince her to join to post, even once, I would be delighted to fork over for a year’s membership for her. (It is as close as I can come to a palanquin littered with rosepetals, in this curs’d electronic format.) Not that you should make any effort that way, simply that if she is so inclined, I state I shall do such a thing and am willing to be called on it. Again, come over to her mailing list =) doesn’t cost anything 😃 but I will crosspost =) Drabble has a specific meaning [the entire story in 100 words or less] so fanfic would be more inclined to be correct, though I would more call it work in a shared universe because it probably wasn’t a ‘named’ character being used, more a generic human and a generic klingon. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > There seems to be a lack of balanced, constitutional democracy in most SF, there is democracy ,yes., but they are pathetic, cowardly, defeatist, idiots as in Star Trek or the New Republic in Star Wars, high ineffective as in the Old Republic in Star Wars and generally has a “mob” comparble in intelligence to the worst of the Third World dictatorships. Apparently even though technology has massively advanced the average man has become more and more ignorant. Hello .. yesterday’s rapture debacle? anti-vaxers? rabid creationists? Super new ager crystal magnet bunny huggy woo types? > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > For content, I’ll agree that Eric Flint’s 1632 series is entirely within the realm of science fiction. Social science rather than hard science, but science nonetheless. Make a thing happen, have the happening event be the focus of the story, see what happens next. At least as much as Asimov’s Nightfall is. Just because it’s an alternate past doesn’t knock it out of the running at all. And god knows it’s all about small town politics, county wide politics, small country politics, and empire-wide politics… even military politics at some points. I adore it. And it’s very pro-democracy. > [Eric Flint - Wikipedia](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Eric_Flint#The_1632_series) > > I think it’s harder to write democracy well. You can write about a small group of people easily, but mass movements and backbench fighting all at once can be a pain in the rear on anything short of a thousand page scale. Especially if you’re trying to cover anything else, like a heroic battle against evil. The 1632 series focuses on democracy _as_ a battle against darkness and repression, so it works well there. Plug again for [Baen Free Library](http://www.webscription.net/c-1-free-library.aspx) 😃 Actually Baen does not believe in locking with DRM, and once you purchase a book you get to download it in any and all formats, and redownload it if you need it in a different format. They have them in pretty much every format you can name. Well I don’t think they have it in PDF but I may be wrong, I’m too lazy to surf over and check. I have to admit I have both a kindle and a nook, and can read on my laptop or desktop, but my preferred read is still on my cell phone [droid] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/42 "2011-05-23T02:19:06Z")
> [@](#): > > There seems to be a lack of balanced, constitutional democracy in most SF, there is democracy ,yes., but they are pathetic, cowardly, defeatist, idiots as in Star Trek or the New Republic in Star Wars, high ineffective as in the Old Republic in Star Wars and generally has a “mob” comparble in intelligence to the worst of the Third World dictatorships. There are plenty of stable, functional, effective democracies in science fiction. It’s just that in the stories that have that, there’s little or no mention made of the government, since a stable government that does what it’s supposed to do is boring. That’s a great place to live, but it doesn’t make for a good story. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/43 "2011-05-23T02:28:16Z")
In Ben Bova’s [Grand Tour](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour_%28novel_series%29) series, the puritanical and anti-scientific “New Morality” movement takes over Earth’s governments by largely democratic means. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/44 "2011-05-23T02:30:59Z")
I think decisions in writing Science Fiction, like a lot of fiction, boil down to “What’s more readable”? I mean, what’s more interesting: _“A guy, in a democracy.”_ Or… \* [movie trailer voice]\*\* “One man. Alone. Against the might…of a nation. In a world where a dictator has enslaved his people, one man…dared…to dream. Of freedom.” \*_[/movie trailer voice]_ ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/45 "2011-05-23T02:44:59Z")
If I recall correctly, we had a series of SF movies that dealt with a quasi-democratic society (well, at least the Senate) which does the job of answering the question why SF doesn’t do democracy: Because it’s **boring**. Just ask anybody who watched all the sitting-on-plush-chairs scenes in the last three Star Wars movies - it seemed that 95% of the time that you saw Samuel L, he was sitting on his ass, talking about various policy and military strategies. So, I agree with the others in this thread who have argued that, many times, the “anti-democratic” nature of sci-fi comes from the fact that it is easier for the author to devise societies where it is more plausible that a few movers and shakers really make things happen, i.e., a monarchy or dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/46 "2011-05-23T02:50:10Z")
Stargate incorporated democratic governments. It kind of had to, being an alternate universe of modern day society. But, again, because a working government is boring, the action usually centers on the military forces working offworld that need to make immediate decisions without consulting the chain of command. Still, SG-1 certainly did a good job of showing how the Stargate program was answerable to the government. Stargate: Universe incorporated more aspects of democracy directly into the plot, and it hurt it, I think. At the very least, _I_ certainly wasn’t rooting for the citizens who demanded a vote and that the military characters answer to them, when the military characters were the ones who were getting shit done in an emergency situation. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/47 "2011-05-23T03:25:07Z")
Of course, Starship Troopers has a democracy. Of sorts. And it works pretty okay. (I mention only the book, the movie is a separate story.) arvuqan, I’ve known of the Baen Free Library since it was instituted, and of the Baen Boards and… well, I donated a few books when Mr. Baen died. None of them went on the shelves, probably, but I hope a kid bought one at the next booksale. I’m just… I barely have the time to keep up _here_ anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/48 "2011-05-23T04:20:49Z")
_Legend of Galactic Heroes_ has a democracy-but an incredibly corrupt and ineffective one. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/49 "2011-05-23T06:54:36Z")
Well, democracy _is_ two athletes and a sci-fi fan voting on what to do at recess… ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/50 "2011-05-23T14:54:02Z")
I think there is some truth to this idea – it’s not present in all science fiction, of course, but I think you can say there is a distinct element of anti-democracy in some strains of science fiction. I think pinning it on libertarianism is a bit too narrow though. It’s really better described as elitism. Let’s face it, there’s a prototypical science fiction writer or reader, and real actual people partake of the prototype to different degrees, of course, but the ur-reader is better at science and technology than socializing. Naturally, they like to read things that value science above socializing. And a government that values technical expertise above socializing will of course think that there are objective technical solutions to all of society’s problems, and any kind of politicking is just pandering to emotions. Naturally, that means democracy is worse than a benevolent dictatorship of the smart technical people. ---
**Author:** ![Deegeea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Deegeea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deegeea)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/51 "2011-05-23T15:29:50Z")
I recently read the sequel to Cyteen and the plot definitely focuses for at least part of the book on the democratic process as it works in the world the story is set in. It’s representative democracy organized along functional rather than geographic lines (Science rep, Military rep, I’ve forgotten the other categories; and a Citizens rep for all not in a functional group). It’s definitely in the “democracy is the worst form of government except all the others” camp. A World Between by Norman Spinrad was a favorite novel of mine back in my late teens (I’m mid 40s now). This is a novel whose main characters are leaders of a world democratic government when their world is invaded by representatives of two opposing political factions set on taking them over by swaying the population’s votes! So it’s definitely a science fiction novel all about democracy, and with a positive view of democracy deeply in the story’s theme and topic. It’s really more about sexism but via a democratic means. Other books of Spinrad’s usually have democratic governments assumed but more in the background of the stories. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/52 "2011-05-23T21:12:22Z")
Democracies are boring. There’s not much democracy in fantasy literature either, but that’s also partly because it uses medieval times as a basis for its setting Think about books set today, where a democracy is perfectly normal and decent. Many plot points I can think of off the top of my head has to do with a corruption of that democracy, either some rogue government group abusing power or one man fighting the system. You hardly ever read a book where the government plays a prominent part and there’s NO corruption ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/53 "2011-05-23T21:32:54Z")
Can’t think of anything to add. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/54 "2011-05-23T21:50:13Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > There used to be a theory that transportation and communications technology would limit the number of people, and the amount of territory, that could be effectively governed by a democracy. If the polity got above that limit, then the ability to respond quickly to a crisis would take priority over the legislative and bureaucratic niceties. This idea gave a quick, simplistic explanation for why Rome went from republic to empire, and why China had never been a republic. A galaxy-spanning civilization would certainly be over such a limit. The novels that came to provide “backstory” for the tabletop boardgame “BattleTech” used the same excuses. Travel times to the outer edges of settled space, coupled with a general backsliding of technology (but not quite eliminating “jump” drive tech) prompted the various spheres of influence to revert to some kind of fuedal structure. > **[BattleTech](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BattleTech)** > > BattleTech is a wargaming and military science fiction franchise launched by FASA Corporation in 1984, acquired by WizKids in 2001, which was in turn acquired by Topps in 2003; and published since 2007 by Catalyst Game Labs. The trademark is currently owned by Topps and, for video games, Microsoft Gaming; Catalyst Game Studios licenses the franchise from Topps. > The series began with FASA's debut of the board game BattleTech (originally named Battledroids) by Jordan Weisman and L. Ross Babcock... ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/55 "2011-05-23T21:50:21Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > No. In fact it is often the opposite, where the protagonist is working to restore or install a democracy by ousting a dictatorship. Like the \*rest \*of the Star Wars movies. What SF abhors, generally, is bureaucracy. The Retief series by Keith Laumer is largely about bureaucracy. Likewise, Heinlein’s “The Star Beast” has as a main protagonist a career bureaucrat, and much of the book is spent discussing how bureaucracy works and how smart people work within it. I do think that Democracy is difficult to deal with in all fiction (not just science fiction) because it doesn’t lend itself well to strong protagonists who are taking action to resolve a plot. Even in movies ostensibly about Democratic leaders, they often behave like dictators when the situation warrants it. > [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I wonder how many other posters have looked at it. We’re commenting on a thesis written by someone who claims that Heinlein’s The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is his main venture into anarchy as a means of governing people. The author of the article has taken the initial scenario for the novel and presented it as if it were representative of the whole. In truth, one of the major plots of the novel is the establishment of the Lunar Republic! > > It certainly changes how I look at the rest of the article. To be fair, a large part of the novel DOES deal with how spontaneous order arises when there is no central authority. The Luna under the Warden is run in a laissez-faire way (i.e. the Warden lets the loonies do whatever they want so long as the grain keeps flowing). As a result, a whole raft of customs rose up to take the place of regulation. The legal system is self-governing, the medium of exchange, even the way line and clan marriages work (they evolved to look after children, the retirement and care of the elderly, and to create a stable financial unit in the absence of government assistance and legal protection). And while the Loonies do form a government in the end, it’s clear that Mannie and Prof are skeptical of it, and ultimately believe they’re likely to just trade one master for another. If there was a sequel, it might be called “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress II: The Rise of the Yammerheads.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/56 "2011-05-23T22:55:23Z")
Or, y’know, it might be called _The Rolling Stones_, or _The Cat who Walks through Walls_. To the OP or anyone else on that side of the argument, here’s a challenge: Can you come up with _any_ genre of literature with what you’d call a positive depiction of democracy? It seems to me that most literature ignores government entirely, or if it does dwell on it, it only does so with respect to the differences from what the reader is used to. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/57 "2011-05-24T00:51:43Z")
Good call on Retief. But there’s some positive democratic appearances in comics. There were a few superhero politicians in the 40s, like Black Condor. In the 70s, Barbara Gordon was a congresswoman for Gotham. In the 60s, the Teen Titans worked to help with one of Kennedy’s initiatives almost every issue. I’m pretty sure Archie had some stories about running for student government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/58 "2011-05-24T01:24:15Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Democracies are boring. Democracies are interesting to live in. ---
**Author:** ![vdgg81](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@vdgg81](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vdgg81)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/59 "2011-05-24T01:45:36Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I just read that article that the OP linked. > > I wonder how many other posters have looked at it. We’re commenting on a thesis written by someone who claims that Heinlein’s _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is his main venture into anarchy as a means of governing people. The author of the article has taken the initial scenario for the novel and presented it as if it were representative of the whole. In truth, one of the major plots of the novel is the establishment of the Lunar Republic! > > It certainly changes how I look at the rest of the article. It’s been too long since I read _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ for me to comment on that. But the reference to _Doctor Who_ in the excerpt in the OP is totally off point. **Vengeance on Varos** doesn’t criticize democracy, it’s a satire on mass culture and the role of violence in public entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/60 "2011-05-24T15:49:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Democracies are interesting to live in. But boring to write about [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719.md?page=4)