# Does science fiction fear democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 21, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719 "2011-05-21T21:12:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/61 "2011-05-24T16:46:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > But boring to write about A lot of aspects of real life are hard to make interesting in a story. Any kind of work, for instance: For a story to be **about** the work, it has to be work with a human element, and ideally an element of human wills in conflict. House trying to puzzle out a diagnosis makes a good story because he usually has to see through the patient’s lies, conscious or unconscious, to do it; an engineer trying to solve a problem, that would be much harder. Democracy is all **about** human wills in conflict. It **is** interesting to write about – all the more so because it is the system we actually live in; there are vast volumes of (realistic) fiction on political themes. But by the same token, it is all utterly familiar to us. In a world where democracy had never been tried – and where censorship were loose – speculation about democratic societies would be good material for SF. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/62 "2011-05-24T17:39:05Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > No. In fact it is often the opposite, where the protagonist is working to restore or install a democracy by ousting a dictatorship. Like the \*rest \*of the Star Wars movies. What SF abhors, generally, is bureaucracy. I always liked that one of the protagonists in Futurama is a dyed-in-the-wool bureaucrat (grade 34). \*They say this boy’s born to be a bureaucrat To be all obsessive and snotty I made my friends and relations file long applications To get into my tenth birthday party. \*\*LaBarbara: \*_But something changed when my man turned pro. **Hermes:** I was sorting but I wasn’t smiling **LaBarbara:** He forgot that it’s not about badges and ranks **Hermes:** It’s supposed to be about the filing!_ ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/63 "2011-05-24T19:52:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > There seems to be a lack of balanced, constitutional democracy in most SF, there is democracy ,yes., but they are pathetic, cowardly, defeatist, idiots as in Star Trek… Those pathetic, cowardly, defeatist idiots defeated the extremely powerful Dominion in a no-holds-barred war in the last seasons of ST: DS9. Show some respect! Kirk talked all the time about the Federation being democratic, and even the Klingons and Romulans who heard him and rolled their eyes didn’t contradict him; they just hated and opposed the Federation for doctrinal or geo- (galacto-?) political reasons. Although ST never went much into the mechanics of elections to the Federation Council, it is recognizably a democracy with many features - the rule of law, civilian control of the military, freedom of speech, freedom against self-incrimination, etc. - that we would recognize as similar to our own: > **[United Federation of Planets](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets)** > > The United Federation of Planets (abbreviated as UFP and commonly referred to as the Federation) was a supranational interstellar union of multiple planetary constituent political entities under a single central government, founded on the principles... > **[Constitution of the United Federation of Planets](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Federation_of_Planets)** > > The Constitution of the United Federation of Planets was a legal document which defined the fundamental political principles of the United Federation of Planets. It contained "guarantees" related to fundamental individual rights of citizens. The... > **[Charter of the United Federation of Planets](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Charter_of_the_United_Federation_of_Planets)** > > The Charter of the United Federation of Planets (or Federation Charter for short) was the document that was ratified by the original members of the United Federation of Planets at its founding in 2161. Jonathan Archer was one of the signers of the... In other sf… The U.S. is still recognizably democratic in Clarke’s _2001: A Space Odyssey_ and _2010: Odyssey Two_, and contrasted with the Soviet Union, which is not. Niven and Pournelle feature a strong constitutional monarchy in _The Mote in God’s Eye._ John Scalzi’s _Old Man’s War_ series has a future democracy of all humanity, not unlike ST’s Federation. Likewise the Confederacion of several of Joe Haldeman’s books, such as _All My Sins Remembered_, or the United Nations (truly a governing entity and not a debating society) of _The Forever War_. > [@Chronos](#): > > …To the OP or anyone else on that side of the argument, here’s a challenge: Can you come up with _any_ genre of literature with what you’d call a positive depiction of democracy? It seems to me that most literature ignores government entirely, or if it does dwell on it, it only does so with respect to the differences from what the reader is used to. As noted earlier, conflict is necessary for good, engaging drama, and a well-functioning democracy is boring to most people. Still, there are several very good political thrillers that implicitly say democracy is better than the alternative: I can think of Jeffrey Archer’s _First Among Equals_, Allen Drury’s _Advise and Consent_ and Fletcher Knebel and Charles W. Bailey II’s _Seven Days in May_, off the top of my head. The political comedy _Dave_ is a good cinematic example - and, of course, _The West Wing_. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/64 "2011-05-25T00:37:48Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > I always liked that one of the protagonists in Futurama is a dyed-in-the-wool bureaucrat (grade 34). > > \*They say this boy’s born to be a bureaucrat > To be all obsessive and snotty > I made my friends and relations file long applications > To get into my tenth birthday party. > > \*\*LaBarbara: \*_But something changed when my man turned pro. > **Hermes:** I was sorting but I wasn’t smiling > **LaBarbara:** He forgot that it’s not about badges and ranks > **Hermes:** It’s supposed to be about the filing!_ That episode has one of my favorite lines from Futurama: Chief Bureaucrat: “Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct - the best kind of correct!” ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/65 "2011-05-29T03:30:04Z")
Bumping this thread to add a mention of _Fuzzy Nation_, John Scalzi’s latest book. The democracy in question is only incidentally involved, but in all respects it’s portrayed as a government of the people which strives to do the right thing, and actually does play a role in defeating the villains. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/66 "2011-05-29T15:21:53Z")
Hadn’t heard of that before, but I see it’s an authorized reboot of H. Beam Piper’s 1962 sf novel _Little Fuzzy_. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/67 "2011-05-29T16:46:03Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Hadn’t heard of that before, but I see it’s an authorized reboot of H. Beam Piper’s 1962 sf novel _Little Fuzzy_. Yes. I haven’t read the original yet, so I don’t know how much rewriting a “reboot” entails. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/68 "2011-05-29T17:12:15Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Bumping this thread to add a mention of _Fuzzy Nation_, John Scalzi’s latest book. The democracy in question is only incidentally involved, but in all respects it’s portrayed as a government of the people which strives to do the right thing, and actually does play a role in defeating the villains. Thanks for alerting me to this - I’ve never read John Scalzi, but I have loved the Little Fuzzy series ever since I discovered it in high school. I just put it on my library hold list. In addition to _Double Star_ (mentioned earlier), Heinlein’s novella _Magic, Inc._ is also almost entirely devoted to the democratic political process (although I suppose it’s strictly defined as fantasy, even though it reads more like SF). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/69 "2011-05-29T18:04:56Z")
That people can only find a handful of examples of democracy, many of them barely tangential at best, to mention over 60 years and tens of thousands of stories speaks louder than any examples they do find. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/70 "2011-05-29T18:05:21Z")
You have GOT to read John Scalzi. I insist upon it. How can you resist a title like _Your Hate Mail Will Be Graded_? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/71 "2011-05-29T21:42:13Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > You have GOT to read John Scalzi. I insist upon it. How can you resist a title like _Your Hate Mail Will Be Graded_? Word. I’d only dimly heard about him before the last couple weeks. Then I saw him on the list of guests for Phoenix Comicon and thought, oh, that’s cool, he worked on SGU. Then I started looking into his writing, and I became a fan overnight. I met him on Friday and he signed copies of _Fuzzy Nation_ and _Old Man’s War_ for me, and he read excerpts from upcoming books on a Saturday panel. Really cool. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/72 "2011-05-29T21:58:39Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > That people can only find a handful of examples of democracy, many of them barely tangential at best, to mention over 60 years and tens of thousands of stories speaks louder than any examples they do find. I have over 5000 SF and fantasy novels out in the barn, You know how long it would take me to have mrAru drag them in one case at a time so I could flip through them looking for the political system in question? I am working off memory here … Then I would have to separate out the different types of democracy, republicanism, representational monarchy, tyranies and dictatorships… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/73 "2011-05-30T00:02:31Z")
It’s not so much that democracy is rare in sf stories, as that the form of governance very often isn’t addressed or described at all. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719/74 "2011-05-30T00:48:03Z")
And, for that matter, there were a nigh-infinite amount of shorts and novellas in the golden age that were basically ‘America In The Future As A Space Empire’, but the government didn’t actually matter to the story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-science-fiction-fear-democracy/582719.md?page=3)