# Does separation of church and state really work in Utah? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440 "2016-06-26T20:01:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/41 "2016-06-28T20:22:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ll check out **Srtanger’s** links later, but this is not a violation of the 1st amendment. There is nothing int he 1st amendment requiring sex education in schools. If the local school boards decide not to teach sex ed, so be it. It is absolutely true that there is nothing codified in Utah state law which violates any reasonable interpretation of the US Constitutional protections for separation of church and state, and the LDS Church leadership is careful to make it clear that their positions are ostensibly that of the church as an independent body. It is also true and well-recognized that most Utah legislators are members of the LDS Church and occupy senior lay positions within their respective wards, and are therefore strongly inclined to vote in agreement with church positions and comply with the demands of senior church leadership. So, while Utah law meets the letter of the requirement, the actual politics are heavily dominated by LDS-dictated positions. Anyone who doubts this has not lived or spent much time in Utah. I have worked with certain Utah companies in which the LDS culture is very strong, and have often found decisions made on how to proceed and who to put into positions of responsibility being openly dictated by “church fathers” (senior church leadership), in contravention to the appropriate technical or fiscal path. The influence is quite blatant, if necessarily anecdotal. It is sometimes frustrating but still less onerous than the sometimes borderline corruption and venal manipulation seen by other contractors borne from pure avarice. At least with the Mormons I know what to expect, and they are unfailingly polite in their interactions. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/42 "2016-06-28T20:27:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > At this point, since this involves both religion and politics it’s best to move it over to Great Debates. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator …as soon as he gets permission from the church elders, that is. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/43 "2016-06-30T06:02:57Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > “Tone down” referred only to the black and white of the query subject line. > > It just seemed a little beyond-alarmist to posit literally in the query that somehow one of the 50 states of the Union was _in its very makeup as a member of the United States_ in violation of the charter of those states. I’m still at a loss to understand what exactly you are objecting to. The title was a question, not a statement and the inference was that the separation of church and state actually works, but just how. Could you suggest an alternative? > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I’ll ask for a cite for this because even if it were true, which it’s not, it doesn’t exist because too many of the companies are private. **Stranger** , still waiting for the cite. > [@Monty](#): > > I’m neither shocked nor distressed. You, on the other hand, continue to be a one-trick pony. You are most welcome to offer a counter argument any of of my factual assertions. I will look forward to correcting any mistakes. > [@Hakuna\_Matata](#): > > I am not overly fond of Mormons, but then I am not fond of most religions, but the one trick pony shows I see here on this issue often irritate me. I mean, come on, you guys are making me defend the fucking Mormons here for hells sake. When you haveme definding the fucking Mormons, then you know it’s gone too far. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is also true and well-recognized that **most** Utah legislators are members of the LDS Church and occupy senior lay positions within their respective wards, and are therefore strongly inclined to vote in agreement with church positions and comply with the demands of senior church leadership. I’m going to ask for another cite here. While it may seem padantic, the cites I’ve found suggest that senior positions are held by about half of the 90% of the legislators who are Mormon. > [@](#): > > I have worked with certain Utah companies in which the LDS culture is very strong, and have often found decisions made on how to proceed and who to put into positions of responsibility being openly dictated by **“church fathers”** (senior church leadership), in contravention to the appropriate technical or fiscal path. The influence is quite blatant, if necessarily anecdotal. I simply don’t believe you. I’m seventh generation Mormon, having ancestors who joined in Kirkland, OH only a few years after the church was officially formed. You don’t talk like a person who is particularly familiar with Mormon culture. There are code words “we” use, and “church fathers” is not one of them. The **“Brethren”** , is the correct term for the senior church leadership, and they do not get that involved in private or pubic companies which they don’t own. Period. I have read or listened to accounts of employees at COB (Church Office Building, e.g. HQ) and there naturally is heavy influence there by the Brethren, as there would be a BYU for example, but not an independent company. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > …as soon as he gets permission from the church elders, that is. 😃 Which doesn’t look like it’s forthcoming. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/44 "2016-06-30T08:01:39Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > You are most welcome to offer a counter argument any of of my factual assertions. I will look forward to correcting any mistakes. You stated that another poster was referring to me when he mentioned “shocked and distressed”. You were wrong then; you are wrong now. I am not shocked; I am not distressed. And, IMHO, your only reason to make the quote and comment you just did is to goad me into violating moderator instructions. My opinion of that will not be posted on the board but will be shared with the mods. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/45 "2016-06-30T14:13:05Z")
> [@Hakuna\_Matata](#): > > I am not overly fond of Mormons, but then I am not fond of most religions, but the one trick pony shows I see here on this issue often irritate me. I mean, come on, you guys are making me defend the fucking Mormons here for hells sake. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > When you haveme definding the fucking Mormons, then you know it’s gone too far. **Moderator Warnings** Religious jabs are not permitted in General Questions. “Fucking Mormons” is not appropriate to this forum, even if you are “defending” them. This is an official warning. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/46 "2016-06-30T14:15:19Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > At this point, since this involves both religion and politics it’s best to move it over to Great Debates. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator > [@Czarcasm](#): > > …as soon as he gets permission from the church elders, that is. 😃 It took some time to get permission, so I’ll move it over now. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/47 "2016-06-30T14:19:08Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Salt Lake Tribune: [“How Utah’s Capital Marches to a Mormon Beat”](http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/home3/53709967-200/lds-church-says-position.html.csp) OK, I picked that one and read thru it. Not really seeing anything actionable wrt 1st amendment jurisprudence there, except maybe some claims of “lobbying” by the LDS church. Most of it is along the lines of: Most people are Mormons, so Mormon values tend to influence voting patterns. Well, yeah, of course. But that’s not, per se, a violation of the 1st amendment. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/48 "2016-06-30T18:07:01Z")
The LDS church is pretty careful about official manipulation at the higher levels of the church. This is with good reason as issue surrounding this both blocked statehood for a long time and resulted in the army marching to SLC and putting artillery on the current site of the U of U above the temple. In SLC there is less influence from the lower level lay clergy than in smaller surrounding communities but that is not vastly different than other places with one dominate religion especially if that religion also has a lay clergy. I was the 4th generation to grow up in a small town near the land of Zion as a gentile and I very much did see church influence at a local level. This manifested itself in many ways including High school students getting credits for off-campus seminary, preferential land and zoning exceptions, and prejudiced hiring for government jobs and contracts. There were also some very silly laws passed that were very defiantly only LDS in origin. As an example they outlawed the sale of underwear within 500 feet of a school, church or house when I lived there. That said the private sector was even worse, in almost every job interview I was asked what ward I was in. Even in SLC I was offered more jobs at higher pay when I was smart enough to go buy my suit and tie from Mr. Mac which outfits a lot of missionaries. That was only true when I was around the age of a returning missionary. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/49 "2016-06-30T19:11:27Z")
There are 3 strip clubs in Salt Lake City. If the LDS Church truly rules all, I would expect something a bit different. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/50 "2016-06-30T19:15:36Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > There are 3 strip clubs in Salt Lake City. If the LDS Church truly rules all, I would expect something a bit different. It is. The dancers only reveal a strip of skin. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/51 "2016-06-30T19:25:56Z")
> [@](#): > > There were also some very silly laws passed that were very defiantly only LDS in origin. As an example they outlawed the sale of underwear within 500 feet of a school, church or house when I lived there. I know there is something about Mormons wearing special underwear, but what’s the rational for that law? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > That said the private sector was even worse, in almost every job interview I was asked what ward I was in. I believe that would be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/52 "2016-06-30T19:34:50Z")
When asked which ward you are in, have you considered answering “Psychiatric”? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/53 "2016-06-30T20:39:00Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > There are 3 strip clubs in Salt Lake City. If the LDS Church truly rules all, I would expect something a bit different. Trails Gentlemen’s Club, now on Ninth South, used to be called–I shit you not–“Golden Trails.” And it was located downtown, mere blocks from Temple Square. Had pretty good pool tables, actually. But the “strip of skin” was close to accurate–because they served alcohol, it was limited to pasties and g-strings. ETA: Regarding wards…yeah, could be illegal to ask, but a lot of locals (mostly LDS, certainly) think of ward boundaries more as geographical areas than religious ones. I knew what ward I was within the boundaries of, even though I’ve never set foot in an LDS church. . ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/54 "2016-07-01T02:53:32Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace;19445706 I believe that would be illegal.[/QUOTE] It is…but it still happens. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/55 "2016-07-01T05:04:10Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is…but it still happens. I’ve been on both sides of a fair number of job interviews here in Utah, and I’ve never heard anyone ask about wards or stakes. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/57 "2016-07-01T08:11:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderator Warnings** > > Religious jabs are not permitted in General Questions. “Fucking Mormons” is not appropriate to this forum, even if you are “defending” them. This is an official warning. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator I apologize to any Mormons for the language. I did not actually wish to offend people. I had intended to use scare quotes since I was commenting on someone else’s post. I would not have used that expression myself. However, in hindsight, even that would not have been appropriate as people would not have been able to tell my intention. For the record, I do not have any problem with Mormons as a people. My mother, most of my relatives and some of my best friends are Mormons. Obviously, I have issues with the religion itself, but I do not have a problem with the people. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/58 "2016-07-01T14:28:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ve been on both sides of a fair number of job interviews here in Utah, and I’ve never heard anyone ask about wards or stakes. I have, but only after the “formal” interview was done. Nor common, not necessarily insidious or anything, but as a part of casual conversation, you bet. ('Course, that was around the time I watched an airline counter agent accept a Temple recommend as valid ID for a flight. Pre-9-11, natch, but still.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/59 "2016-07-01T14:41:36Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is…but it still happens. Well, yeah. Lots of illegal things happen. I wasn’t implying that it didn’t happen just because it was illegal. And most people probably don’t even know that it IS illegal. Has there even been a law suite brought? If not, then I would challenge the “it happens all the time” notion. It would be an obvious thing a local civil rights group to target. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440/60 "2016-07-01T16:48:05Z")
Much of my younger years was spent as a Mormon living in Utah. Every time I had interviewed for a job, I was asked about my participation in church. I didn’t know at the time that it was illegal and unethical. I even did it myself in 2005 when I was interviewing candidates for a job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-separation-of-church-and-state-really-work-in-utah/758440.md?page=2)