# Does "sin" really exist? I maintain there is no such thing. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982 "2011-11-05T20:38:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/1 "2011-11-05T20:38:31Z")
“Sin” is defined as a violation of a religious rule. But there are thousands of religions so there is no standard for this violation. Blasphemy is considered a “sin” by most religions but I consider it a duty. “Sin” is therefore self definitional. And with such a self referential aspect the entire concept is clearly bogus. “Murder” is a legal construct and as such cannot be classified as “sin”. “Thou shalt not kill” does not make a distinction between self defense and honor killings or stonings. Homicide is clearly not a “sin”. Premarital sex is no longer considered “sinful” by most. The concept has no real meaning anymore. Why the distinction? I don’t want some jackass claiming another “died for my sins” as I don’t accept the conclusion or the premise. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/2 "2011-11-05T20:42:15Z")
What is a ‘sin’ to others is an ‘ethical violation’ to me. Example: Lying. Most of the time, you can lie and it is not a crime. It’s a sin to Christians but just _wrong_ to others. Many ‘sins’ are based on universal concepts of what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/3 "2011-11-05T20:44:16Z")
In an absolute sense, no. However, it certainly is a meaningful term when you specify the religion you are talking about. You yourself said _“Sin” is defined as a violation of a religious rule._ So, it makes perfect sense to say that to fundamentalist christians divorce and remarriage is a sin. It isn’t to you (presumably) and it isn’t to me, but it is to them. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/4 "2011-11-05T20:45:41Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > “Sin” is defined as a violation of a religious rule. But there are thousands of religions so there is no standard for this violation. Blasphemy is considered a “sin” by most religions but I consider it a duty. > > “Sin” is therefore self definitional. And with such a self referential aspect the entire concept is clearly bogus. > > “Murder” is a legal construct and as such cannot be classified as “sin”. “Thou shalt not kill” does not make a distinction between self defense and honor killings or stonings. Homicide is clearly not a “sin”. Premarital sex is no longer considered “sinful” by most. The concept has no real meaning anymore. > > Why the distinction? > > I don’t want some jackass claiming another “died for my sins” as I don’t accept the conclusion or the premise. What a load of bullshit. The Bible clearly defines what is sin and what is not. And “thou shalt not kill” is really “thou shalt not murder”. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/5 "2011-11-05T20:49:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What a load of bullshit. The Bible clearly defines what is sin and what is not. > > And “thou shalt not kill” is really “thou shalt not murder”. What about stoning adulterers? The Bible is really keen for that rule. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/6 "2011-11-05T20:51:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What a load of bullshit. The Bible clearly defines what is sin and what is not. > > And “thou shalt not kill” is really “thou shalt not murder”. So from now on, we’ll just ask you to tell us if what we want to do is okay. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/7 "2011-11-05T20:53:15Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What a load of bullshit. The Bible clearly defines what is sin and what is not. > > And “thou shalt not kill” is really “thou shalt not murder”. Does the breaking of rules of other holy missives count as sin, or is the Bible the only book that counts? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/8 "2011-11-05T20:57:56Z")
All this is just my opinion. > [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > “Sin” is defined as a violation of a religious rule. But there are thousands of religions so there is no standard for this violation “Crime” is defined as violation of a legal rule. But there are hundreds of countries so there is not standard for this violation. Each religion has different beliefs. That is true. Each believes it is correct; this is also true. But arguing to any of them that “there are other religions, therefore yours is false” doesn’t work; their position is “there are other religions, and they are all false”. " > [@](#): > > “Thou shalt not kill” does not make a distinction between self defense and honor killings or stonings. Homicide is clearly not a “sin”. “Thou shalt not kill” is a translation. I’ve heard many times that it’s a poor translation, and that it’s “thou shalt not murder”. Which would be an unlawful or unjustified killing. > [@](#): > > Premarital sex is no longer considered “sinful” by most. The concept has no real meaning anymore. I’m not sure that something which is considered by most is a definition which is applicable. Sure, they may not believe it’s a sin (I don’t). That doesn’t affect the reality of whether or not it is (I reckon it isn’t, but I could be wrong). > [@](#): > > I don’t want some jackass claiming another “died for my sins” as I don’t accept the conclusion or the premise. I’m also not convinced that calling Jesus a “jackass” is an effective way to approach this debate. I mean - do you want to debate it, or just piss a whole bunch of people off? ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/9 "2011-11-05T21:04:09Z")
Candyman - I would not call Jesus a “jackass” since I do not believe such myself. I would, however. call his modern followers jackasses. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/10 "2011-11-05T21:05:10Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Candyman - I would not call Jesus a “jackass” since I do not believe such myself. Ah, Edit. Yes, misread your post. My apologies. You did call the follower the jackass, not Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/11 "2011-11-05T21:12:36Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Ah, Edit. Yes, misread your post. My apologies. You did call the follower the jackass, not Jesus. Thanks. To be clear I admire the historical Jesus as depicted in the Gospels of 90-140 CE. Not everything - but most. I admire Mark Twain and Kurt Vonnegut more - but lets not shave too close. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/12 "2011-11-05T21:13:41Z")
In a very loose sense, a “sin” is an action that is taken with the full knowledge that it is wrong. (Which invites the question, is a total sociopath capable of sin, if he doesn’t know he’s doing wrong?) Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/13 "2011-11-05T23:07:46Z")
To me the distinction is a crime is an offense against society (or an individual member of society) and a sin is an offense against God. Some acts are obviously both - murder for example. But there are acts, like eating a certain food, which are regarded as a sin but not a crime. In my opinion, sin can only exist if you believe that God exists to be offended by sin. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/14 "2011-11-06T01:09:57Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > “Sin” is defined as a violation of a religious rule. . . . More of a moral/ethical rule with religious authority backing it up. Sometimes a religious rule in the strict sense, like turning your back on the altar or something. But, sin is always defined as sin because it is something against God’s will, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/15 "2011-11-06T01:16:07Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What a load of bullshit. The Bible clearly defines what is sin and what is not. Yes, and \*Mein Kampf \*“clearly defines” things too. So do \*Atlas Shrugged \*and \*Dianetics. \*The pot calling the kettle bullshit, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/16 "2011-11-06T02:02:59Z")
You’ve got offenses against sentient beings, offenses against society and offenses against ideology. Sin, I guess, is a mix of all 3. You can be offensive towards a sentient being (hurting a person), or you can offend society (prostitution), or you can offend an ideology (blasphemy). That is my personal opinion of how it works. However speaking out against Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung s considered the highest form of ‘sin’ in north korea. That doesn’t mean I have to respect those rules. So in conclusion, I don’t know. But I know I don’t know enough to know. Which shows I know something. Thou shalt murder is such crap anyway. You can kill in retribution for crimes against a person, against society or against an ideology. And you can kill in promotion of your tribe/nation. And you can kill those who are not members of your tribe/nation (not so much anymore but in the past a lot more). And you can kill sentient beings that aren’t human. A better saying should be ‘thou shalt not kill productive members of society, just so long as they keep being productive’. Killing those outside your society, or those that are a threat to your society generally haven’t been considered morally bad. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/17 "2011-11-07T01:16:40Z")
C.K. Chesterton: > [@](#): > > As for sin, let us call it folly and have done with it, for until we call it folly we shall never have done with it. The conception of sin flatters us grossly. There is something grandiose in it that cannot but appeal to the child in every man. That we infinitesimal creatures, scrambling like ants over the face of this minor planet in pursuit of our personal aims - that we have it in our power to affront the majesty of the universe is a most preposterous, delightful fancy … ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/18 "2011-11-07T02:25:16Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > “Sin” is defined as a violation of a religious rule. You will need to clarify this. If sin is, by definition, the violation of a religious rule, then it’s very trivial to prove that sin exists. People violate religious rules all the time. Hence, sin exists. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/19 "2011-11-07T02:47:35Z")
Many things – like home runs, overdraft fees, and breeds of dog – only have meaning within their contexts, but that doesn’t mean they don’t “exist,” within those contexts and I don’t see the value to arguing about whether or not they “really” exist. It’s an argument with zero sides. We all know what sin means when people talk about sin. If you want to say, “nothing is either good or bad but thinking makes it so,” that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982/20 "2011-11-07T02:58:33Z")
I think there are some things that a Person can do that take away a part of their soul, for lack of a better word. I don’t mean this in any religious sense. The part that is taken away from you is a view or perspective. Since you don’t have it any more, you don’t know that it’s missing… Except for the hole it leaves behind. Ive seen some people who have done enough that they are basically nothing but empty holes [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-sin-really-exist-i-maintain-there-is-no-such-thing/601982.md?page=2)