# Does socioeconomic status/poverty account for violent crime rates? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488 "2014-12-17T13:05:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/1 "2014-12-17T13:05:30Z")
While discussing crime in America, someone told me that it is unfair to say that blacks commit more crimes than whites. According to him, both groups commit crimes at equal rates for a given level of socioeconomic status. Is this true? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/2 "2014-12-17T14:25:30Z")
First, you have to distinguish between “The Crime Rate”, as published by law enforcement, and tha actual incidence of criminal behavior. The official statistical crime rate is based on the number of events that are reported to the police and investigated as crimes. Which can very a great deal according to what constitutes a crime in that oarticular jurisdiction, how willing the police are to investigate it, and how willing the general population is to report a crime. Furthermore, a surprisinglyh high number of crimes are never solved, so the demographics of the perpetrators remains unknown forever. For example less than 60% of all murders are ever cleared by arrest, and that is just the incidents that are recognized and classified as murders, not including homicides that superficially appear to be accidents, suicides, etc. For many other classes of crimes, the number that are solved is even lower than that, so one can only guess about the demographics of the criminals. A large number of crimes are solved when a person arrested for some other reason becomed implicated with an existing case, so of course, the known perps are more likely to be among the people most likely to be suspected of crimes. For example, if I discover in the morning that somebody got into my parked car and rummaged through it but nothing seems to be missing, that may or may not show up in the crime statistics depending whether I call the police and report it. Even if I do report it, the identity of theh perp will likely never be known. This is not to answer the OP question, but to warn that the statistical data is suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/3 "2014-12-17T15:11:56Z")
Poverty itself doesn’t cause violent crime, but it’s often correlated with things like exposure to lead, which do. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/4 "2014-12-17T18:38:01Z")
I think it’s fair to say that a higher proportion of blacks get arrested, and as a result get incarcerated, than whites in the US, but that could be for a variety of reason, some related to their socio-economic status, some not. I think it has a lot to do with police profiling certain neighborhoods and stopping random people in hopes of catching someone in the act of doing something wrong. They just don’t profile white neighborhoods as much as they do black neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/5 "2014-12-17T19:50:57Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > First, you have to distinguish between “The Crime Rate”, as published by law enforcement, and tha actual incidence of criminal behavior. > > The official statistical crime rate is based on the number of events that are reported to the police and investigated as crimes. Which can very a great deal according to what constitutes a crime in that oarticular jurisdiction, how willing the police are to investigate it, and how willing the general population is to report a crime. > > Furthermore, a surprisinglyh high number of crimes are never solved, so the demographics of the perpetrators remains unknown forever. For example less than 60% of all murders are ever cleared by arrest, and that is just the incidents that are recognized and classified as murders, not including homicides that superficially appear to be accidents, suicides, etc. For many other classes of crimes, the number that are solved is even lower than that, so one can only guess about the demographics of the criminals. A large number of crimes are solved when a person arrested for some other reason becomed implicated with an existing case, so of course, the known perps are more likely to be among the people most likely to be suspected of crimes. > > For example, if I discover in the morning that somebody got into my parked car and rummaged through it but nothing seems to be missing, that may or may not show up in the crime statistics depending whether I call the police and report it. Even if I do report it, the identity of theh perp will likely never be known. > > This is not to answer the OP question, but to warn that the statistical data is suspect. This is not true. Crime statistics come from two sources. The first is police reports which are vulnerable to non reporting. This is called Uniform Crime Reports. The second is crime victimization surveys in which people are surveyed and asked if they were the victim of a crime in the previous year. This is the National Crime Victimization Survey. The NCV is not susceptible to unreported crime bias. [Here](https://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/about/crime_measures.html)is a description of the two types. The interplay between race, income and criminality is complex but there does appear to be higher crime rates for certain races. Whites and Asians have similar median incomes in the US but Asians are incarcerated at one fifth the rate of whites. Blacks and Hispanics have similar median incomes but Blacks are incarcerated at a rate 2 and a half times the hispanic rate. The great recession saw poverty rates climb to rates not seen in decades while crime rates fell to the lowest rates in forty years. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/6 "2014-12-17T23:36:45Z")
Latinos have a poverty rate that is generally around what black people have. It depends on the state. In some states it is higher for blacks, in others it is higher for latinos. In others it is about equal. > **[Poverty Rate by Race/Ethnicity](https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/)** > > Visit the post for more. I’m not sure what the stats are for crime committed by latinos vs blacks, but I’m fairly sure most murder (around 60%) are committed by blacks. However blacks are under more police surveillance which would translate into more blacks being arrested. Their rate of drug arrest is about 7x that of whites despite similar usage rates because law enforcement is more present in black communities. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/7 "2014-12-17T23:50:28Z")
I think that this question is sufficiently complex and controversial that Great Debates is more suitable than General Questions. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/8 "2014-12-18T00:12:52Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > I think it’s fair to say that a higher proportion of blacks get arrested, and as a result get incarcerated, than whites in the US, but that could be for a variety of reason, some related to their socio-economic status, some not. I think it has a lot to do with police profiling certain neighborhoods and stopping random people in hopes of catching someone in the act of doing something wrong. They just don’t profile white neighborhoods as much as they do black neighborhoods. That argument doesn’t pan out well in many important ways though. It comes from the narrative that all poor people, regardless of race, engage in crime at roughly the same rate but it is only because of an inherently racist society/police that certain groups get arrested and prosecuted more for the same crimes. However, there are other ways to cross-check that idea. Certain crimes like murder are taken very seriously regardless of who the victim and perpetrator are. We know that some groups, especially young black men in the inner city, are both much more likely to be a murderer AND be be murdered than almost any other group. Black on black violent crime is a huge issue in general. You can see it in crimes ranging from rape to armed robberies in their own neighborhoods. Poor white people also engage in violent crimes at a higher rate than their more affluent counterparts but the difference isn’t nearly as great. This argument only applies to some subpopulations but it is an example of how you can demonstrate that many of the more concerning statistics aren’t just an artifact of social bias. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/9 "2014-12-18T00:21:23Z")
I never understood the line of reasoning behind the legal bias argument either. It typically starts with the idea that a disproportionate number of black people live in poor conditions, have to attend terrible schools, have worse job prospects than other groups and have to face lots of negative social pressures due to the breakdown of the family among other things. That is a narrative even the most progressive person will happily tell you. However, when you rephrase the same set of facts to describe the real-world consequences of those circumstances, it is considered racist. Suddenly, the people that live in those circumstances are just as educated, well-behaved and civic minded as everyone else and it is wrong to suggest otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/10 "2014-12-18T00:41:39Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > While discussing crime in America, someone told me that it is unfair to say that blacks commit more crimes than whites. According to him, both groups commit crimes at equal rates for a given level of socioeconomic status. Is this true? While it’s too complicated to sum up quite that simply, I think the fundamental idea is correct. I would phrase it this way “Crime rates correlate more strongly with socioeconomic status than with race.” This is especially true if you specify violent crime (as opposed to, say, drug crimes or white-collar crime). I don’t think the data collection issues that jtur88 brings up are such a big deal. While one set of data may get slightly different results than another set, there is no data set that will show you gangs of ivy-leaguers sticking up convenience stores. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/11 "2014-12-18T01:02:55Z")
Socioeconomic status does correlate in one way: poor people are more likely to commit violent crimes than middle class or wealthy people. It does not correlate in another way: when poverty goes up, crime doesn’t necessarily go up. Hector mentioned lead exposure, which is a really good possibility and also correlates. Another reason poor people were more likely to commit crimes is that police were unwilling to actually police those areas. In places like New York where police were determined to take back those neighborhoods, crime also went down. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/12 "2014-12-19T04:48:34Z")
Men will kill for respect, and our society respects money. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/13 "2014-12-19T04:56:52Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > While it’s too complicated to sum up quite that simply, I think the fundamental idea is correct. I would phrase it this way “Crime rates correlate more strongly with socioeconomic status than with race.” This is especially true if you specify violent crime (as opposed to, say, drug crimes or white-collar crime). > > I don’t think the data collection issues that jtur88 brings up are such a big deal. While one set of data may get slightly different results than another set, there is no data set that will show you gangs of ivy-leaguers sticking up convenience stores. Ivy Leaguers are however more likely to commit other crimes, like drug use (use of both alcohol and illegal drugs correlates with IQ). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/14 "2014-12-19T04:59:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Socioeconomic status does correlate in one way: poor people are more likely to commit violent crimes than middle class or wealthy people. It does not correlate in another way: when poverty goes up, crime doesn’t necessarily go up. > > Hector mentioned lead exposure, which is a really good possibility and also correlates. Another reason poor people were more likely to commit crimes is that police were unwilling to actually police those areas. In places like New York where police were determined to take back those neighborhoods, crime also went down. Right. One example to bear in mind is that while poor people in America have seen their incomes stagnate for several decades (and they’ve gotten much poorer _relative_ to rich people), violent crime rates have dropped by a lot over the same period. Conversely, Venezuela, which saw massive poverty and inequality reduction between 2003-2012 or so, also saw big increases in violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/15 "2014-12-19T05:04:14Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Men will kill for respect, and our society respects money. In societies with an effective legal system, though, violent crime tends not to make you money. The average low level drug dealer in Chicago projects around 1990 made less money per hour than a fry cook at McDonalds. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/16 "2014-12-20T01:30:06Z")
What I had in mind, though, is that poor men aren’t respected, and so become violent to get respect, or at least fear, which is easily confused with respect. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/17 "2014-12-20T01:34:10Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > In societies with an effective legal system, though, violent crime tends not to make you money. The average low level drug dealer in Chicago projects around 1990 made less money per hour than a fry cook at McDonalds. The dealer had better prospects for promotion, though. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/18 "2014-12-20T01:53:45Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Right. One example to bear in mind is that while poor people in America have seen their incomes stagnate for several decades (and they’ve gotten much poorer _relative_ to rich people), violent crime rates have dropped by a lot over the same period. Conversely, Venezuela, which saw massive poverty and inequality reduction between 2003-2012 or so, also saw big increases in violent crime. My best guess in the case of America is that lead poisoning led to the spike in crime from the 70s to 90s, and the precipitious plummet beginning in the 90s was because a new generation had grown up after regulations were put reducing environmental lead poisioning. Mother Jones has an excellent [article](http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline) about this. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/19 "2014-12-20T02:11:13Z")
I highly recommend the works of Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, authors of the book _[The Spirit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger](http://www.amazon.com/The-Spirit-Level-Equality-Societies/dp/1608193411)_. Their thesis (backed by a mountain of peer reviewed statistical evidence of countries across the world) is that inequality causes a generalized breakdown in social dysfunction. Not only violence, but also drug use, lower life expectancy, mental illness, obesity, and teen pregnancy are strongly correlated with inequality. It is the stress of status competition and feeling inferior to others that causes mental and health problems. Here’s a [TED talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw) by Wilkinson summarizing his ideas. From _The Spirit Level_, page 134: > [@](#): > > While looks and physical attractiveness are more important for women, it is status that matters most for sexual success among men. Psychologist Davis Buss found that women value the financial status of prospective partners roughly twice as much as men do… This explains not only why feeling put down, disrespected and humiliated are the most common trigger for violence; it also explains why most violence is between men - men have more to win or lose from having (or failing to gain) status. Reckless, even violent behaviour comes from young men at the bottom of society, deprived of all the markers of status, who must struggle to maintain face and what little status they have, often reacting explosively when it is threatened ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488/20 "2014-12-20T03:45:28Z")
Then the recent increase in inequality should have caused a spike in crime. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-socioeconomic-status-poverty-account-for-violent-crime-rates/707488.md?page=2)