# Does Star Trek DS9 rip off Babylon 5? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 13, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856 "2010-02-13T14:01:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/1 "2010-02-13T14:01:39Z")
An offshoot of [another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=551944). New thread started to avoid hijacking the original. The discussion so far : > [@Star Trek:TNG "Sub Rosa" - Ripoff of Anne Rice or original as claimed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-sub-rosa-ripoff-of-anne-rice-or-original-as-claimed/528779/2): > > I’m certainly not a fan of Rice, but as a dedicated Trekkie I’ll admit that the franchise has been less than scrupulous at times. And by “at times”, I mean, “for the entire run of Deep Space Nine, which was almost certainly ripped off from Babylon Five.” > [@Star Trek:TNG "Sub Rosa" - Ripoff of Anne Rice or original as claimed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-sub-rosa-ripoff-of-anne-rice-or-original-as-claimed/528779/8): > > cite? According to IMDB records DS9 was over a year before B5.Abd I think it had its plot arc planned out from the start. > [@Star Trek:TNG "Sub Rosa" - Ripoff of Anne Rice or original as claimed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-sub-rosa-ripoff-of-anne-rice-or-original-as-claimed/528779/9): > > Paramount had his [series bible](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5#Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine_controversy). > > Really if you look at DS9 it was nothing like any of the trek before it and it makes a lot more sense if you see it as inspired by the plot outline of Babylon 5 not as an outgrowth of Trek. > [@Star Trek:TNG "Sub Rosa" - Ripoff of Anne Rice or original as claimed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-sub-rosa-ripoff-of-anne-rice-or-original-as-claimed/528779/10): > > People who say this kinda thing like to yammer about “but but but they both take place on space stations! And they both have commanding officers who like baseball! And they’re both about _wars_! In space!” > > But aside from that, they’re pretty dissimilar. It’s like complaining that Band of Brothers is a ripoff of Hogna’s Heroes because they’re both about American soldiers fighting Zee Germans. > [@Star Trek:TNG "Sub Rosa" - Ripoff of Anne Rice or original as claimed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-sub-rosa-ripoff-of-anne-rice-or-original-as-claimed/528779/11): > > Many people, when this topic comes up, will point out that DS9 aired earlier. > > I wonder, if they care enough to get their air dates right, why they don’t care enough to look just a tad deeper and learn that that JMS(the creator of Babylon 5) pitched the Bab 5 concept to paramount a few years before they came up with DS9. > > There are quite a few similarities between the show in setting, in tone, and in plot even so far as the captain of the station becoming a great spiritual leader. > > Considering paramount had b5 pitched to them before writing DS9, and the vast similarities, only a fool would be familiar with the history of the shows and doubt JMS’s ideas had some influence for which he never received credit. > [@Star Trek:TNG "Sub Rosa" - Ripoff of Anne Rice or original as claimed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-sub-rosa-ripoff-of-anne-rice-or-original-as-claimed/528779/12): > > Captain becoming spiritual leader? Check. > One race recently liberated from faded empire? Check. > Leader named Dukat? Check. > Female first officer? Check. > Minority doctor? Check. > > Powerful “outside” race trying to foment wars to increase their power? Check. > Dominion vs. Shadows. > > I’m sure with some time I could come up with more, these are just the surface similarities. > [@Star Trek:TNG "Sub Rosa" - Ripoff of Anne Rice or original as claimed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-trek-tng-sub-rosa-ripoff-of-anne-rice-or-original-as-claimed/528779/13): > > Clearly, I agree with your conclusion, but I think your reaching on the doctor point. I assume you refer to Bashir’s being a genengineered freak, but I always had the impression that was an idea they cooked up midway through the series. > > Also, black people are not genetically engineered. > > As for Franklin, while the doctor was black, I don’t recall anything in the series which implied to me that role was written specifically to be a minority character. Perhaps the best man for the role just simply happened to be black. Or, they simply wanted a black actor somewhere and the man going for Franklin was the best candidate. Discussion continues: ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/2 "2010-02-13T14:06:56Z")
Okay, so Paramount saw the B5 bible. But it is a large company. Is there any evidence that anyone working on DS9 ever saw it? And if so, is it certain they did sobefore they came up with the idea for DS9? I’m sure it takes a long time to develop a TV series, and I’ll bet that the DS9 creators were already working on their bible when JMS pitched his. ---
**Author:** ![ZPhobiaZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9de0a6/32.png) [@ZPhobiaZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPhobiaZ)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/3 "2010-02-13T14:16:46Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Okay, so Paramount saw the B5 bible. But it is a large company. Is there any evidence that anyone working on DS9 ever saw it? And if so, is it certain they did sobefore they came up with the idea for DS9? I don’t know of any evidence that it directly influence the development of DS9, but it would be an amazing coincidence if they developed so similar in theme without there being influence. Seriously, DS9 reads out like someone at Paramount said “okay, this JMS guy had some interesting ideas now let’s have our guys work out the details and fit it into our Star Trek franchise… we’ll get more viewers that way” ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/4 "2010-02-13T14:25:57Z")
> [@ZPhobiaZ](#): > > I don’t know of any evidence that it directly influence the development of DS9, but it would be an amazing coincidence if they developed so similar in theme without there being influence. But with so many TV shows being made at any one time, co-incidences are bound to happen occasionally. Like the films [Big](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094737/)and [Vice-Versa](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096380/)coming out in the same year. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/5 "2010-02-13T14:27:15Z")
Babylon 5 was built around a 5 year arc. Up until then I honestly don’t remember any TV show (let alone a Trek one) at the time doing anything similar. It’s much more prevalent now though so I’d be willing to say coincidental rather than intentional. ---
**Author:** ![ZPhobiaZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9de0a6/32.png) [@ZPhobiaZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPhobiaZ)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/6 "2010-02-13T14:33:55Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > But with so many TV shows being made at any one time, co-incidences are bound to happen occasionally. Like the films [Big](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094737/)and [Vice-Versa](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096380/)coming out in the same year. Oh yeah, coincidences are bound to happen, but, with Paramount having had a look at B5 before they started working on DS9, it seems less like more of a stretch to assume it was a coincidence than to conclude B5 provided some inspiration. Edit: Also, about your exapmle, IIRC both Big and Vice Versa(especially vice versa) were hopping on the magic thingamabob swicthes bodies bandwagon of the 80s. They both had earlier inspiration. B5 was pretty original in concept. So I find it quite a stretch that they came up with the same original concept at the same time, and the fact that paramount had b5’s playbook had nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/7 "2010-02-13T14:39:29Z")
The time line is this: Straczynski pitched the idea to Paramount first. They turned it down. Then Warner Brothers bought B5. Soon after, Paramount announced DS9. The timing was noted from the start. It’s hard not to conclude that Paramount didn’t create DS9 in reaction to B5. They saw Warner Brothers was doing a show in a space station (and, when they turned down B5, they didn’t say, “we have something similar in the works”), so decided that’s where Star Trek should go. Ultimately, it’s a minor point, since other than being set on a space station, the shows were quite different. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/8 "2010-02-13T14:44:36Z")
Also as referred to in the Wiki article the original B5 scripts called for a shape shifter character cue Odo. As has already been mentioned the shift from stories in a box vs an arc was completely out of the blue for a Trek series but the entire premise of B5. Also a noticeable shift away from techno babble solutions to more character driven problems (though techno babble was still in full force in many episodes). This you could write off as the loss of Gene Roddenberry and his insistence that star fleet offers don’t have character conflicts I suppose. Also we have a race led by prophecies. In DS9 it was aliens outside of time. In B5 it was by a time traveling captain. The Vorlons (who were responsible for the time travel) are angelic aliens that influenced religions. The worm hole aliens were outside of time and were gods. To me it’s pretty clear that DS9 borrowed pretty heavily from the B5 series bible. I’m not saying they weren’t very different shows or that DS9 was somehow tainted by all the borrowing but there’s little doubt that some stealing did take place and was adapted to the trek universe. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/9 "2010-02-13T16:15:24Z")
I’m not sure the Space War was planned in Ds9. The original concept was centered around the Bajorans. A spiritual and artistic people that had turned to terrorism to rid their planet of an occupying force (Cardassians). The transition to self government and a return to peace was the theme. Nearly all S1 dealt with this. There was one episode that dealt with an attempted government coup. The rebels took over Ds9. There were episodes that dealt with religious fanatics (Ds9’s school blown up). Kira was the former terrorist trying to adjust to authority. Some of her former friends saw her as a traitor because she supported the new gov. Someone must have realized the show was a little to serious and academic. The Founders were introduced S2 and eventually all out war. The Bajoran stories nearly disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/10 "2010-02-14T21:07:36Z")
I watched every episode of both when they first aired. Other than the fact that both involved a space station and a big war, I don’t really think they’re that similar. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/11 "2010-02-14T21:31:17Z")
Not at all similar. **Babylon 5** was _good_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/12 "2010-02-14T21:32:13Z")
I thought DS9 was the best of the Star Trek shows. I really liked it. I liked Babylon 5 too. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/13 "2010-02-14T21:50:44Z")
Yea, I’m in the “co-incidence” crowd. You have enough people making fictional stories in similar genres and drawing from similar past works, and your gonna end up with some being similar. Example: shortly before Harry Potter came out, Niel Gaiman wrote a comic book about a adopted spectacled british kid who finds out he’s destined to be a great wizard, given an owl as a familiar and taken away to learn about magic. I seriously doubt that Rowlings ripped this off, they just happened on the same combination of fantasy elements and wrote similar set ups for their stories (which quickly diverge after the initial set-up anyways). And really all the similarities are just sci-fi/fantasy tropes. Space Stations, “races led by prophecies”, time traveling enemies, aliens mistaken as gods. Both series share these things not only with each other, but with several dozen other sci-fi books shows and movies. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/14 "2010-02-15T02:23:38Z")
This kind of thing happens all the time coincidentally – two movies about volcanoes, two movies about giant meteors heading for earth, two shows about Chicago hospitals (“Chicago Hope” and “E.R.”). Companies like Paramount and Warner are not shy about taking these things to court. If they had even a slight case for believing that there had been monkey business, there would have been a lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/15 "2010-02-15T03:07:22Z")
Sorry, but the timing says “no coincidence.” Paramount did not make the slightest mention of another Start Trek spinoff (not even to Straczynski) until _after_ Warner Brothers announced **Babylon 5** was in production. You’re right in that the similarities were common SF tropes – which is why it never reached the lawsuit phase (and Straczynski decided that there was no reason). But Paramount would never have tried to do this spin off if Warners hadn’t bought B5. Paramount had gotten a pitch on **Babylon 5** (which included the series bible and plot synopses of the first season) , turned it down, and did nothing until after B5 was announced, at which point they announced a new show that they had never been mentioned before. The fact that they didn’t announce anything about DS9 until after WB had picked up B5 makes the whole affair stink. Paramount’s motivation was to freeze out Warner Brothers, thinking that a series set on a space station would succeed on the Star Trek name and keep B5 off the air (and it almost did). They wanted to take up time slots for their shows and deny them to Warner Brothers (this was before they had networks). Now some of the things on DS9 were coincidence (maybe), but the creation of the show was definitely not. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/16 "2010-02-15T14:03:09Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Sorry, but the timing says “no coincidence.” > > … > > Paramount’s motivation was to freeze out Warner Brothers, thinking that a series set on a space station would succeed on the Star Trek name and keep B5 off the air (and it almost did). They wanted to take up time slots for their shows and deny them to Warner Brothers (this was before they had networks). > > Now some of the things on DS9 were coincidence (maybe), but the creation of the show was definitely not. That’s all you’ve got for such solid certainty about motivation? Stranger things have happened in life. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/17 "2010-02-15T16:10:45Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Sorry, but the timing says “no coincidence.” Paramount did not make the slightest mention of another Start Trek spinoff (not even to Straczynski) until _after_ Warner Brothers announced **Babylon 5** was in production. > > You’re right in that the similarities were common SF tropes – which is why it never reached the lawsuit phase (and Straczynski decided that there was no reason). But Paramount would never have tried to do this spin off if Warners hadn’t bought B5. > > Paramount had gotten a pitch on **Babylon 5** (which included the series bible and plot synopses of the first season) , turned it down, and did nothing until after B5 was announced, at which point they announced a new show that they had never been mentioned before. The fact that they didn’t announce anything about DS9 until after WB had picked up B5 makes the whole affair stink. > > Paramount’s motivation was to freeze out Warner Brothers, thinking that a series set on a space station would succeed on the Star Trek name and keep B5 off the air (and it almost did). They wanted to take up time slots for their shows and deny them to Warner Brothers (this was before they had networks). > > Now some of the things on DS9 were coincidence (maybe), but the creation of the show was definitely not. If Paramount had nothing in the works for DS9 until after WB had started Babylon 5, why did DS9 hit the air a full year sooner? You timeline still has not addressed this. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/18 "2010-02-15T16:43:51Z")
The situation was reversed with the original Star Trek and Lost in Space. Roddenberry pitched his show to CBS. They said no. Then, Lost in Space airs on CBS. Coincidence? Perhaps. However, Roddenberry didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/19 "2010-02-15T17:17:07Z")
Hollywood is full of leeches who won’t pay a dime for your idea, but will happily steal it, change it slightly and come out with their own at the same time. Just look how many movies we’ve had in the past, on the exact same subject, at the exact same time. I’m sure there are 2000 people out there right now pitching ideas to rip off Avatar and make a slightly different movie or a TV series out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/20 "2010-02-15T17:24:28Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > If Paramount had nothing in the works for DS9 until after WB had started Babylon 5, why did DS9 hit the air a full year sooner? You timeline still has not addressed this. What are you talking about? From the wiki: The pilot episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (DS9) aired just weeks before the debut of Babylon 5. Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski indicated that Paramount was aware of his concept as early as 1989 B5 the regular series didn’t start until 94 but the pilot had aired in 93 same year as the pilot for DS9. The network was understandably uncertain about B5’s ability to compete with DS9 and no doubt held back on production. Whereas Paramount once it greenlit DS9 it would have no reason to hold back on producing a continuation of a known and popular franchise. They had the concept of B5 sitting around for years already at this point. Possibly so long they had forgotten where it even came from (if you want to be charitable about it). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856.md?page=2)