# Does Star Trek DS9 rip off Babylon 5? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 13, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856 "2010-02-13T14:01:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/21 "2010-02-15T18:02:42Z")
I recall there being some discussion at time over the fact that the Starship Defiant was introduced in DS9 and the White Star in B5 was shortly afterward, or vice versa, and that one might have taken that idea from the other. I liked both shows, although watching them now I see huge problems with both. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/22 "2010-02-15T18:41:30Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I recall there being some discussion at time over the fact that the Starship Defiant was introduced in DS9 and the White Star in B5 was shortly afterward, or vice versa, and that one might have taken that idea from the other. But again, the idea of adding a spaceship to your show about a spacestation isn’t exactly so obscure that two people couldn’t come up with it simultaneously. It seems kinda obvious once you start running low on story lines that take place in a confined area. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Paramount’s motivation was to freeze out Warner Brothers, thinking that a series set on a space station would succeed on the Star Trek name and keep B5 off the air (and it almost did). They wanted to take up time slots for their shows and deny them to Warner Brothers (this was before they had networks). Maybe, but in anycase, that’s considerably different from the claim that Paramount ripped material directly off B5. Networks adjust their programing pretty constantly to compete with each other, I have no problem believing that Paramount decided to launch a sci-fi show in response to WB’s deciding to do the same. But I don’t see that as particularly sinister (hell, its a good thing, if your a sci-fi fan). I actually vaguely remember that there was kind of a wave of sci-fi shows at the time: DSV, Space: above and Beyond, and Earth 2. Plus the timing isn’t that mysterious, ST:TNG was ending, and Paramount wanted to keep the franchise from dying. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/23 "2010-02-15T20:02:43Z")
You all are forgetting the most important question: Which Captain grew a beard first? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/24 "2010-02-15T20:42:28Z")
I’m going by memory here but didn’t DS9 has two episodes with a high ranking military figure faking a crisis to install martial law and B5 had a high ranking military figure fighting a regime that imposed martial law…both played by Robert Foxworth? Of course the all-time champion in stealing ideas was in the early 1990s was when ABC, CBS and NBC all had movies of the week about the Amy Fisher-Joey Buttafuco case. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/25 "2010-02-15T20:57:36Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Companies like Paramount and Warner are not shy about taking these things to court. If they had even a slight case for believing that there had been monkey business, there would have been a lawsuit. The arguments for seem to make it sound like its Paramount vs JMC, big company vs little guy. I always thought that the _studio_ behind the little guy would be more than happy to weigh in if they thought they could get a squeeze on their rivals. Kind of like the way the moon landing deniers make it seem like its them vs NASA when it comes to uncovering the truth. Forgetting that the USSR would have been more than happy to back up any discovery that would discredit the US. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/26 "2010-02-15T21:49:34Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > The arguments for seem to make it sound like its Paramount vs JMC, big company vs little guy. I always thought that the _studio_ behind the little guy would be more than happy to weigh in if they thought they could get a squeeze on their rivals. > > Kind of like the way the moon landing deniers make it seem like its them vs NASA when it comes to uncovering the truth. Forgetting that the USSR would have been more than happy to back up any discovery that would discredit the US. Yeah that’s totally alike. A huge conspiracy about one of history’s most important events and the possibility that a network might have been less then honest in its dealings. Nobody here is saying Paramount sent over spies to copy down the early drafts of B5 and concocted DS9 in a secret lab in order to screw over B5. It’s just very likely that if you look at all the similarities of the characters, the setting, the sudden change in tone and the fact that THEY HAD HIS SERIES BIBLE that maybe just maybe they cribbed a few notes and stole a few ideas. And really unless they had a memo that said “hey we’re totally stealing all this guys work. I sure hope nobody reads this and sues us” there’s no way the other studio would have won a lawsuit. Especially if JMS wasn’t behind it 100% (which it sounds like he wasn’t). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/27 "2010-02-16T00:04:33Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > THEY HAD HIS SERIES BIBLE Who had it? Who specificially? “Paramount” isn’t enough. Unless you have definitive proof that the production team that actually created DS9 had access to it, you don’t have anything. Copyright infringement cases hang on the question of who exactly had an opportunity to see something. > [@](#): > > And really unless they had a memo that said “hey we’re totally stealing all this guys work. I sure hope nobody reads this and sues us” there’s no way the other studio would have won a lawsuit. Wrong. Access and opportunity combined with a finding of substantial similarity to the copyrightable portions of a work are enough to prove an infringement case. It happens all the time. (after that come the questions of whether anything in the bible was copyrightable and if anything that DS9 did was substantially similar to anything copyrightable in the bible) ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/28 "2010-02-16T00:32:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > You all are forgetting the most important question: > > Which Captain grew a beard first? No, the more important question is: What is more dangerous than a locked room full of angry Klingons? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/29 "2010-02-16T00:53:45Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > No, the more important question is: > > What is more dangerous than a locked room full of angry Klingons? Well, as long as it stays locked… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/30 "2010-02-16T03:48:49Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > No, the more important question is: > > What is more dangerous than a locked room full of angry Klingons? A room full of angry Narn, of course. 🙂 (And the only thing more dangerous than a room full of angry Narn is: A single angry Narn, with the key!) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/31 "2010-02-16T03:50:11Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Well, as long as it stays locked… That only helps if you’re on the right side of the door. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/32 "2010-02-16T06:51:22Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Who had it? Who specificially? “Paramount” isn’t enough. Unless you have definitive proof that the production team that actually created DS9 had access to it, you don’t have anything. Copyright infringement cases hang on the question of who exactly had an opportunity to see something. Ahh I see we need a clear chain of evidence that’s hard to prove without having memos or some other very specific evidence. > [@](#): > > Wrong. > > Access and opportunity combined with a finding of substantial similarity to the copyrightable portions of a work are enough to prove an infringement case. It happens all the time. Ahh I see all we need now is access and opportunity. As for happens all the time not really. It’s really hard to make something 100% original. Just the other day I wrote a short story only to realize it was almost a complete rip-off of a Cliver Barker story halfway through. Could he have sued me? No the elements and the plot were only vaguely there but once I saw it I knew what happened. If I published it the only proof would be that I have copy of that book on my bookshelf. Maybe someone on some message board would notice and argue if it was a homage or a rip off or a coincidence. > [@](#): > > (after that come the questions of whether anything in the bible was copyrightable and if anything that DS9 did was substantially similar to anything copyrightable in the bible) Wait now we need access and opportunity and proof the series bible held copywritable material and that the two are substantially similar and a chain of evidence of who had what. Make up your mind. Is this easy or not? Because one Access and opportunity seems to be met just by what we know. The rest we’ll need search warrants and to go before a judge who has to use his/her subjective point of view about what is similar and what isn’t. But here’s a point you missed. This isn’t a court of law. I’m not saying B5 should have dragged DS9 to court. Even before I knew about the controversy I thought there was something fishy going on. Years later when I heard about it the details made perfect sense. I’m convinced. It hasn’t really changed anything in my life. I’m not worried about it and it’s not some grand conspiracy. I’m a little baffled that some people can’t see it and it kills some time to post about it but really it doesn’t generate any outrage. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/33 "2010-02-16T07:06:13Z")
> [@Darkhold](#): > > As for happens all the time not really. It’s really hard to make something 100% original. Just the other day I wrote a short story only to realize it was almost a complete rip-off of a Cliver Barker story halfway through. Could he have sued me? No the elements and the plot were only vaguely there but once I saw it I knew what happened. If I published it the only proof would be that I have copy of that book on my bookshelf. Maybe someone on some message board would notice and argue if it was a homage or a rip off or a coincidence. I should have been a little clearer on my point here. It’s unlikely that my story was close enough to the original to be lawsuit material. Just like I don’t think DS9 and B5 are close enough to be lawsuit material (unless someone did produce my aforementioned memo). Comedians steal jokes, companies steal ideas, authors are influenced by what they read. This instance is just a little more obvious and a little more egregious. I’m not trying to argue B5 had a lawsuit. It just seems like DS9 ripped off or was inspired by the series bible of B5. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/34 "2010-02-16T09:41:40Z")
DS9 absolutely was a ripoff of many elements of B5. It would be one hell of a series of coincidences if not. I used to post on the babylon 5 newsgroups (remember those?!) back when the show was airing which had some pretty serious discussion and which JMS also participated in. There were some pretty extensive discussions of this subject, and I remember coming away very convinced that DS9 very clearly ripped off of JMS’ pitch and series material. It’s over a decade since this happened so I’m fuzzy on the details, but I remember people making very extensive lists of the various similarities, and in depth discussion of the timing of the issue along with the information paramount had, and there’s almost no doubt that they deliberately copied a lot of the ideas. Ultimately, it ended up being a good thing. DS9 is the best trek series because of the stuff they stole from B5, both in terms of story and thematically. DS9 had plenty of soulless technobabble boring episodes, but it also in the middle and end ran with extensive story arcs which sometimes had real consequences for the characters, and which showed that the future wasn’t a hippy paradise, and that there were characters with flaws. DS9 is essentially the most adult and interesting of the treks because it tried to be thematically more like Babylon 5 than TNG. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/35 "2010-02-16T11:56:24Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Ultimately, it ended up being a good thing. DS9 is the best trek series because of the stuff they stole from B5, both in terms of story and thematically. DS9 had plenty of soulless technobabble boring episodes, but it also in the middle and end ran with extensive story arcs which sometimes had real consequences for the characters, and which showed that the future wasn’t a hippy paradise, and that there were characters with flaws. DS9 is essentially the most adult and interesting of the treks because it tried to be thematically more like Babylon 5 than TNG. It has always been my belief that DS9 was the best Trek series because Quark put Captain Sisko in his place for the typical Starfleet better-than-thou attitude: Quark: I think I figured out why Humans don’t like Ferengi. Sisko: Not now, Quark. Quark: The way I see it, Humans used to be a lot like Ferengi: greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We’re a constant reminder of a part of your past you’d like to forget. Sisko: Quark, we don’t have time for this. Quark: You’re overlooking something. Humans used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi: slavery, concentration camps, interstellar wars. We have nothing in our past that approaches that kind of barbarism. You see? We’re nothing like you… we’re better. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/36 "2010-02-16T17:34:05Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Ultimately, it ended up being a good thing. DS9 is the best trek series because of the stuff they stole from B5, both in terms of story and thematically. DS9 had plenty of soulless technobabble boring episodes, but it also in the middle and end ran with extensive story arcs which sometimes had real consequences for the characters, and which showed that the future wasn’t a hippy paradise, and that there were characters with flaws. DS9 is essentially the most adult and interesting of the treks because it tried to be thematically more like Babylon 5 than TNG. Exactly. No other Star Trek show has ever had the level of character development that DS9 had. For me the best example is Jake’s (crap is that his name - it has been ages) Ferengi friend. He went from a young boy causing mischief to a battle scarred veteran that lost a limb and descended into bitterness. All from memory there though. It has been years since I saw a DS9. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/37 "2010-02-16T20:40:48Z")
> [@Darkhold](#): > > Yeah that’s totally alike. A huge conspiracy about one of history’s most important events and the possibility that a network might have been less then honest in its dealings It depends what message board you bring the subject matter up on 😛 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/38 "2010-02-16T20:50:24Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Exactly. No other Star Trek show has ever had the level of character development that DS9 had. For me the best example is Jake’s (crap is that his name - it has been ages) Ferengi friend. He went from a young boy causing mischief to a battle scarred veteran that lost a limb and descended into bitterness. > > All from memory there though. It has been years since I saw a DS9. Nog. Why that name sticks in my mind is a mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/39 "2010-02-16T21:23:44Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I watched every episode of both when they first aired. Other than the fact that both involved a space station and a big war, I don’t really think they’re that similar. I hadn’t thought through all the similarities, of which there were more than I recalled before reading this thread, but this is still how I see it. I liked both very much, but would give the edge to DS9 for better acting, sets and sfx. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/40 "2010-02-16T21:29:29Z")
Meh, I think it’s more a case of somebody thinking, “ooh, diplomacy on a space station, that could work” than ripping off, per se. Yeah, you’re gonna find a shit-ton of minor similarities, if you look for them, but I think that’s just confirmation bias. Hell, you can find the same level of similarities between pretty much any ST show and B5: Female psychic on staff? Blond chick gets killed off? Plot arc dealing with freedom-fighters/terrorists? TNG or B5 - you decide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856.md?page=3)