# Does Star Trek DS9 rip off Babylon 5? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 13, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856 "2010-02-13T14:01:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/41 "2010-02-16T21:34:45Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > Female psychic on staff? Blond chick gets killed off? Plot arc dealing with freedom-fighters/terrorists? TNG or B5 - you decide. Hell, I thought you were talking about _Voyager_! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/42 "2010-02-17T01:08:57Z")
When I first saw Babylon 5, I actually though it was trying to be Star Trek. I personally think the idea for DS9 came from B5, but they branched far enough to be completely different shows by the time they actually aired. Yet, for marketing reasons, it wouldn’t surprise me if either company hyped up the similarities. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/43 "2010-02-17T01:17:46Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > When I first saw Babylon 5, I actually though it was trying to be Star Trek. Right, cause you know, if there are shows in space in alien, it’s trying to be star trek. Have you ever seen a star trek script? They seriously insert the words [technobabble] in the script so that other writers can fill it in with random sciency sounding words later. They actually create problems, and resolve problems, in the script, by writing essentially Character 1: We have a problem. If [technobabble], then our [technobabble] and we’ll be destroyed! Character 2: Wait, I have a solution. We can [technobabble]. … And that’s the setup and resolution of the story. Babylon 5 never did anything like that. It’s all about the characters and plot and conflict. There’s no reset button. Characters grow. Actions have consequences. Meaningful stories were told. Babylon 5 is what star trek wished it could be, if it were made for adults. That isn’t to say that it’s great - it hasn’t aged well, it has its problems, etc. But it was so much more ambitious and interesting than any trek that it’s ridiculous. The only time trek even comes close was the later part of DS9 that attempted to be gritty and somewhat realistic and have story arcs. Essentially when they tried to copy B5 thematically. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/44 "2010-02-17T01:39:06Z")
B% never had Ferengi stealing a cloaking device, and lean against the invisible thing in the hallway, pretending to be unconcerned when someone walked past. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/45 "2010-02-17T02:06:31Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > B% never had Ferengi stealing a cloaking device, and lean against the invisible thing in the hallway, pretending to be unconcerned when someone walked past. > 🙂 True, but DS9 never had Human Style Sex 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/46 "2010-02-17T02:11:29Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > True, but DS9 never had Human Style Sex 🆒 For that I’ve got Maxim. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/47 "2010-02-17T02:18:10Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > For that I’ve got Maxim. 🙂 It loses some translation from the original Russian, I assure you! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/48 "2010-02-17T02:40:37Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > It loses some translation from the original Russian, I assure you! 😃 Russian, Russian, Ivanova or whatever her name was? Maybe I missed something giving up on it. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/49 "2010-02-17T02:50:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Russian, Russian, Ivanova or whatever her name was? Maybe I missed something giving up on it. Indeed, you missed many scenes of Ivanova sulking in a silk nightie (this is how she spends the first part of Season 4, more or less), and the hillarious “Human Style Sex” scene from Season 2. Basically Ivonova is trying to secure trade relations between Earth and some advanced, arrogant alien race, and finds out that the alien ambassador wants to have sex with her (understandable). Ivanova, however, wants nothing of the sort with the ambassador (also understandable), and banks on the alien being too arrogant to actually bother to _know_ how humans have sex and too proud to admit it. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfMOQxYgGas](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfMOQxYgGas) (it starts at 1:20 or so) ETA: Sadly, this video has lots of pointless edits thrown in that kinda break the scene up a bit… ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/50 "2010-02-17T02:55:04Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Indeed, you missed many scenes of Ivanova sulking in a silk nightie (this is how she spends the first part of Season 4, more or less), and the hillarious “Human Style Sex” scene from Season 2. Basically Ivonova is trying to secure trade relations between Earth and some advanced, arrogant alien race, and finds out that the alien ambassador wants to have sex with her (understandable). Ivanova, however, wants nothing of the sort with the ambassador (also understandable), and banks on the alien being too arrogant to actually bother to _know_ how humans have sex and too proud to admit it. Besides the actual “sex” scene **Raguleader** linked to, this also sets up a hilarious payoff at the end of the episode. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/51 "2010-02-17T03:11:43Z")
Another thing that DS9 lacks, I think, is Vir Cotto’s wave. Like this: _waves and smiles_😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/52 "2010-02-17T04:02:23Z")
B5 lacks Gul Dukat, and thus it will always be second to DS9. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/53 "2010-02-17T04:17:41Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > B5 lacks Gul Dukat, and thus it will always be second to DS9. DS9 lacks Commander Tomalak, which is a major coup for B5 😉 ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/54 "2010-02-17T04:21:18Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > B5 lacks Gul Dukat, and thus it will always be second to DS9. See I was gonna say the same thing, only about Garak. And Weyoun. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/55 "2010-02-17T04:25:10Z")
But B5 has G’Kar, Londo, and Marcus. Call it a wash? ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/56 "2010-02-17T04:25:39Z")
> [@choie](#): > > See I was gonna say the same thing, only about Garak. And Weyoun. Oh, and also, DS9 lacks Mr. Bester. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/57 "2010-02-17T06:24:00Z")
Ezri is cute. DS9 wins. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/58 "2010-02-17T08:13:32Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Ezri is cute. DS9 wins. I agree with you but the whole “Who is better, Jadzia or Ezri?” can be the source of endless fiery debates within the DS9 fandom. Now as for the idea of whether or not Paramount stole JMS’ ideas… If somebody comes to your studio with pitch and it happens to be very similar to something you are already working on, do you tell them “Sorry, we’re already working on a similar concept”? Or do you quietly tell them no thanks and then call up your production team and tell them to get their asses in gear? In other words, is there a potential downsite (exposure to lawsuit perhaps) that stems from admitting that you have a similar idea already? What are the legal precedents for this sort of situation? In any case, no lawsuits came of this whole thing so all the speculation about who knew what and when is kind of moot. If JMS really thought he had been ripped off what possible motivation would he have had not to sue? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/59 "2010-02-17T13:13:57Z")
> [@Darkhold](#): > > Ahh I see we need a clear chain of evidence that’s hard to prove without having memos or some other very specific evidence. Ahh I see all we need now is access and opportunity. In infringement cases between large media companies these chains of evidence rarely exist before you sue. They acquire this information _after_ they sue. Not having these things before you sue doesn’t stop you from bringing a lawsuit. If Warner Bros. had had any belief at all that the DS9 producers had gotten hold of the B5 info before going into production, they would have sued. > [@](#): > > As for happens all the time not really. It’s really hard to make something 100% original. The question here is not whether every element of DS9 is completely new. The question is whether it is a “rip off.” So far as I am concerned, it’s a rip off only if it is infringing. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856/60 "2010-02-17T13:58:26Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > But B5 has G’Kar, Londo, and Marcus. Call it a wash? No mention of Zathras? Or of Zathras? And man, you didn’t even mention Zathras! Zathras is having hard life…but will probably have hard death, so at least there is symmetry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-star-trek-ds9-rip-off-babylon-5/528856.md?page=4)