# Does "Stop Here on Red" also mean "No Turn on Red"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422 "2016-08-29T18:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/1 "2016-08-29T18:26:58Z")
This type of signage might not be universal, but in Northern NJ we frequently see signs that say “Stop Here on Red” and there’s usually a line on the road that tells you where to stop. After almost 30 years of driving here, I still can’t get a consensus on whether it also implies “No Turn on Red”, which is also ubiquitous around here. When learning how to drive, I was always told by my father that “Stop Here on Red” means you stay put until the light turns green. But sometimes I’ll see both signs at the same intersection, which tells me that “No Turn on Red” is not implied, or else why have both signs? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/2 "2016-08-29T18:30:06Z")
I would read that sign as just telling drivers where the stop line was, to avoid cars stopping too far into the intersection. I would think you could still turn right on red when safe to do so. States seem to have no problem with “no right turn on red” signs when they want them. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/3 "2016-08-29T18:30:44Z")
Hmm. I don’t know the legal answer to this (and I agree with your logic about having both in place). However, generally speaking, when I see the “Stop Here On Red” signs, it’s in a location where there’s a visibility or clearance issue at the intersection that would also make it difficult to safely proceed against the light. Maybe that’s not the case where you are, though. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/4 "2016-08-29T18:39:52Z")
In California, “stop here on red” means just that. Once you’ve stopped, you can turn right if it isn’t otherwise forbidden and it is safe to proceed. I can dig up cites if desired. The “stop here on red” signage I regularly encounter are in those locations either where the roads are a bit askew, making it easy to stop too far into the intersection, or where pedestrians are likely to deviate from the crosswalk given that location’s particular foot-traffic sources/destinations. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/5 "2016-08-29T18:42:39Z")
It also likely is to indirectly remind you to stop where the pavement sensor can detect you, so that you don’t miss the next cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/6 "2016-08-29T18:43:48Z")
My logic interpretation would be this: It is implied that STOP HERE ON RED also means NO TURN ON RED because SHOR always makes you stop farther away from the corner/intersection for some reason. Since you are not near enough to the corner you cannot turn right on red from there, you’d essentially be going thru the red light, not making a true right on red. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/7 "2016-08-29T19:01:27Z")
Unlike Canada, in the US, unless an action is explicitly forbidden, it is permitted. So, Stop Here on Red does not exclude Right Turn on Red. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/8 "2016-08-29T19:12:13Z")
If you really are unsure of the answer contact your local sheriffs office to determine the answer. They’re the ones in the best position to determine if they would pull you over for it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/9 "2016-08-29T19:46:17Z")
“Stop Here On Red” does not mean “Stay Here While Light Is Still Red,” any more than a “STOP” sign means stop and stay stopped until the sign changes :D. It’s all plain and simple – every driver knows to stop for a red light, and this sign is just clarifying WHERE to stop in certain locations as mentioned in posts #2 & 4. The word “Here” is what is significant about the sign. ETA: Reading more into it than what is explicitly stated is just asking for unnecessary complication. Say what you will about how governments do things, no agency is going to confuse the issue by having signs that say “Stop Here On Red” when what they mean is “No Turn On Red.” The fact that some intersection have both signs underscores the logic that each sign has its own separate meaning, and if they want you both stop where indicated AND not turn on red there, they’ll put up both signs. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/10 "2016-08-29T19:50:31Z")
The NJ Vehicle code is Title 39 of the NJ statutes. See [link](http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=432239&depth=2&expandheadings=off&headingswithhits=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&softpage=TOC_Frame_Pg42) They’re not real easy to navigate. The best I was able to come up was this [link](http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=430686&Depth=2&depth=2&expandheadings=on&headingswithhits=on&hitsperheading=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&record=%7BF42B%7D&softpage=Doc_Frame_PG42) for right turns at intersections controlled by lights, and this [link](http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=430686&Depth=2&depth=2&expandheadings=on&headingswithhits=on&hitsperheading=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&record=%7BF4C6%7D&softpage=Document42) for intersections controlled by signs. Both say you can turn right against a stop light signal or sign after stopping & ensuring it’s safe to continue. No mention of an “except where a ‘stop here on red’ sign is posted.” My vote (as somebody who has never lived in NJ and only rarely driven there) is that “stop here on red” does NOT imply “no turn on red.” If you get pulled over for trying this, be sure to tell Officer Friendly that some random dude on the internet assured you it was OK. Then shout your defiance over the Officer’s ignorance using lots of foul language. It’ll work out fine. I assure you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/11 "2016-08-29T19:52:42Z")
From the MUTCD (Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices), Section 2B.53-02: > [@](#): > > Traffic Signal signs (see Figure 2B-27) may be installed at certain locations to clarify signal control. Among the legends that may be used for this purpose are LEFT ON GREEN ARROW ONLY (R10-5), **STOP HERE ON RED (R10-6 or R10-6a) for observance of stop lines,** DO NOT BLOCK INTERSECTION (R10-7) for avoidance of traffic obstructions, USE LANE(S) WITH GREEN ARROW (R10-8) for obedience to lane-use control signals (see Chapter 4M), LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN (symbolic circular green) (R10-12), and LEFT TURN YIELD ON FLASHING RED ARROW AFTER STOP (R10-27). **Bolding** mine. This is the federal bible of traffic signage. If states want to do something else (cough **California** cough), they make their own manual. Even then it’s about 99% the same. The description says nothing at all about not turning on red, and it would, if that was included. It does say that it’s only allowed with a signal. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/12 "2016-08-29T20:36:17Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > This type of signage might not be universal, but in Northern NJ we frequently see signs that say “Stop Here on Red” and there’s usually a line on the road that tells you where to stop. After almost 30 years of driving here, I still can’t get a consensus on whether it also implies “No Turn on Red”, which is also ubiquitous around here. > > When learning how to drive, I was always told by my father that “Stop Here on Red” means you stay put until the light turns green. But sometimes I’ll see both signs at the same intersection, which tells me that “No Turn on Red” is not implied, or else why have both signs? No it doesn’t mean “no turn on red.” It means stop at the line and then yield to turn right. Or left if on a one way street going onto a one way street. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/13 "2016-08-29T20:42:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Or left if on a one way street going onto a one way street. The OP is in New Jersey. Left on red is always illegal. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/14 "2016-08-29T22:05:28Z")
I would guess it doesn’t mean not turn on red. But then, I live in a state that has red arrows that **do not** mean don’t turn right on red unless they’re accompanied by a sign that says “don’t turn right on red” so no one knows why they’re used sans signage instead of red lights which you can also turn right on after stopping. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/15 "2016-08-29T22:13:11Z")
Some western states have allowed right turns on red for a long time. It became national in the 70s (though this being the US, it required enactment by each individual state). The final state to allow it was I believe Maryland in the late 70s. I remember “stop her on red” signs from earlier than that in Ohio when I learned to drive. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/16 "2016-08-29T22:16:59Z")
> [@Pasta](#): > > The OP is in New Jersey. Left on red is always illegal. In some states, left on red is OK, when the cross street is one-way. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/17 "2016-08-29T22:47:15Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > In some states, left on red is OK, when the cross street is one-way. Yes, that’s why I pointed out that the OP is in New Jersey, where it is not OK. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/18 "2016-08-29T22:47:28Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > In some states, left on red is OK, when the cross street is one-way. Alaska is like that, but most drivers are ignorant of the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/19 "2016-08-30T00:16:08Z")
I’ve generally found the sign used to keep traffic back on narrow intersections so trucks can negotiate turns. It does not mean no right turn on red or there would be a sign that says that. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422/20 "2016-08-30T00:21:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve generally found the sign used to keep traffic back on narrow intersections so trucks can negotiate turns. It does not mean no right turn on red or there would be a sign that says that. Yup. I see that a lot as well as for crosswalks. Once you stop, and it is clear, you can inch forward and make your turn. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-stop-here-on-red-also-mean-no-turn-on-red/764422.md?page=2)