# Does the 14th amendment really give citizenship to "anchor babies" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028 "2006-05-02T01:07:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/41 "2006-05-04T21:27:21Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] My point is that that was not the intent of the law. And it should not be interpreted the way it currently is. [/QUOTE] The weight of history, common law, and U.S. Supreme Court precedent all suggest that your point is a pipe dream. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/42 "2006-05-04T21:39:40Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] The weight of history, common law, and U.S. Supreme Court precedent all suggest that your point is a pipe dream. [/QUOTE] It may very well be. Then again. America could be waking up. I think the protests helped in that regard. Millions of Americans that hadn’t given immigration a second thought are now aware that 12 million people are here illegally. And that these people want to make demands on our government. I couldn’t have staged a better first step if I tried. So, I am hopeful. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/43 "2006-05-04T21:44:35Z")
Thing is, what exactly would be the purpose of denying citizenship to children born in the US? Are you gonna kick them out? What exactly is that going to accomplish? And I really object to the concept of “anchor baby”. As if having a baby in the US means you become immune to deportation. That’s simply false. Just because you have a child who is a US citizen doesn’t mean you can’t be deported. You surely can be deported. A baby born in the United States is not an illegal immigrant, even if their parents are. A baby born in the United States is an American. This has been the law for more than 100 years, and is the law in almost every country. Whether some of the drafters of the amendment didn’t intend for the children born in the US of foreign nationals to become citizens, the fact remains that this is the law of the land today, and the way the amendment has been interpreted for over 100 years. And there is no indication that changing the law would be good public policy. What exactly would it accomplish? How would I benefit by denying citizenship to children born in the US? It certainly wouldn’t help keep out illegal immigrants, it would just define people who are now legal citizens as illegal immigrants. How does that help? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/44 "2006-05-04T21:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] It may very well be. Then again. America could be waking up. I think the protests helped in that regard. Millions of Americans that hadn’t given immigration a second thought are now aware that 12 million people are here illegally. And that these people want to make demands on our government. I couldn’t have staged a better first step if I tried. So, I am hopeful. [/QUOTE] And what, may I ask, has that to do with depriving natural-born American citizens, such as **Paul** ’s mom, of their citizenship? They’re not here illegally; they belong here, in the country of their birth. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/45 "2006-05-04T21:50:48Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] And I really object to the concept of “anchor baby”. As if having a baby in the US means you become immune to deportation. That’s simply false. Just because you have a child who is a US citizen doesn’t mean you can’t be deported. You surely can be deported. [/QUOTE] And should be [QUOTE=Lemur866] A baby born in the United States is not an illegal immigrant, even if their parents are. A baby born in the United States is an American. This has been the law for more than 100 years, and is the law in almost every country. [/QUOTE] Cite? About the other countries, that is. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/46 "2006-05-04T21:53:30Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] It may very well be. Then again. America could be waking up. I think the protests helped in that regard. Millions of Americans that hadn’t given immigration a second thought are now aware that 12 million people are here illegally. And that these people want to make demands on our government. I couldn’t have staged a better first step if I tried. So, I am hopeful. [/QUOTE] The latest Pew research poll showed that, the more people dealt with immigrants, the less fearful they were of them; the common message I see among the right wing media is a palpable disappointment that there was virtually no violence. And since people were shown how peaceful and patriotic their relatives and friends are: > [@](#): > > Still, most polls show that Americans favor changes in immigration policy by better than a ratio of 2 to 1 and that Californians are even more supportive. Americans tell pollsters that they would like to see a guest worker program and some sort of plan that would lead to citizenship for those in the United States. The ones that are losing hope are the hate mongers. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/47 "2006-05-04T21:54:58Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] And what, may I ask, has that to do with depriving natural-born American citizens, such as **Paul** ’s mom, of their citizenship? They’re not here illegally; they belong here, in the country of their birth. [/QUOTE] Paul brought that up out of the blue and I tried to explain to him that he and his Mom had nothing to worry about. I suggest a reread of the exchange. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/48 "2006-05-04T21:58:12Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] The ones that are losing hope are the hate mongers. [/QUOTE] They might be. I don’t know any or why you brought them up. I thought at issue were those who respect the laws of the United States and believe in fairness for those playing by the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/49 "2006-05-04T22:03:21Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Paul brought that up out of the blue and I tried to explain to him that he and his Mom had nothing to worry about. I suggest a reread of the exchange. [/QUOTE] I read the exchange. Why in the world would you suggest that to him? It is a fact (given the background provided) that if the amendment were reinterpreted as you desire that **Paul** ’s mother would lose her citizenship. How can you assure him that she will not? Think it through. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/50 "2006-05-04T22:04:00Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] They might be. I don’t know any or why you brought them up. I thought at issue were those who respect the laws of the United States and believe in fairness for those playing by the rules. [/QUOTE] I wrought them up because I noticed that so far, you have choosen to ignore that your hero Minutemen have racist members. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/51 "2006-05-04T22:20:29Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I read the exchange. Why in the world would you suggest that to him? It is a fact (given the background provided) that if the amendment were reinterpreted as you desire that **Paul** ’s mother would lose her citizenship. How can you assure him that she will not? Think it through. [/QUOTE] Moreover, if one adopts **magellan** ’s view, _why_ shouldn’t she lose her citizenship? What makes her so special that she gets to stay? This is, apparently, a matter of principle, and as **magellan** keeps reminding us, you can’t compromise on those, even a little bit. If being born in America to foreign born parents shouldn’t make you an American, then it shouldn’t have _ever_ made you an American, no matter when you were born here. If we’re shipping infant Juan back, then Mrs. **Paul** goes on the next ship, too. And she can take her damn fishsticks with her! ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/52 "2006-05-05T01:01:20Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Paul brought that up out of the blue and I tried to explain to him that he and his Mom had nothing to worry about. I suggest a reread of the exchange. [/QUOTE] I hope I did not in any way represent the argument. If we rule that citizenship is not passed along by nation of birth, then my Mom is not a citizen. She has been mistaken her entire life. If we take away the supposed citizenship of the next generation of ‘anchor babies’ then we would have to take away the supposed citizenship of previous ‘anchor babies.’ Is this not correct? Further if my Mom is not a citizen (and if my Dad were not), than I would not be a citizen. Where am I going wrong on this reasoning? Again, I hope I am not misrepresenting the obvious legal reasoning here. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/53 "2006-05-05T01:28:25Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] I hope I did not in any way represent the argument. If we rule that citizenship is not passed along by nation of birth, then my Mom is not a citizen. [/QUOTE] Not necessarily. The Fourteenth Amendment provides a _minimal_ definition of citizenship, not a maximal definition. It defines a group of people from whom citizenship cannot be taken away. If it were interpeted _not_ to apply to particular people–for example, your mother–that wouldn’t automatically mean that those people weren’t citizens. It would mean that it was constitutionally permissible for Congress to define citizenship in such a way as to exclude them. Furthermore, I don’t know if your mother’s family was here legally. On possible reinterpretation of the citizenship clause would be that it applied only to children of citizens and of _legal_ aliens. If your family was here legally, such a reinterpretation wouldn’t affect you. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/54 "2006-05-05T01:40:57Z")
My Mother was born in the US to illegal aliens (‘Frostbacks,’ as they came over the northern frontier). If illegals could not have an American child, she would not be an American. If she was not an American, I would not be one. Would this impact my military pension if it is determined I accepted my commission under false pretenses? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/55 "2006-05-05T02:20:28Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] I wrought them up because I noticed that so far, you have choosen to ignore that your hero Minutemen have racist members. [/QUOTE] Ah, now you’re hitting your stride: “hate mongers”, “racists”. What took you so long? Finally couldn’t hold it in any more, eh? But for the record, I denounce and despise the racists that may in the Minutemen, the Elks, the PTA, the ACLU, the Nation of Islam, the JDL, or any other organization in which thay may reside. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/56 "2006-05-05T02:24:42Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I read the exchange. Why in the world would you suggest that to him? It is a fact (given the background provided) that if the amendment were reinterpreted as you desire that **Paul** ’s mother would lose her citizenship. How can you assure him that she will not? Think it through. [/QUOTE] Suggest what? That I don’t think that his mother would have anything to worry about? I think that to be the case and I explained why. Now if you want to incite fear with a slipper slope argument, knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/57 "2006-05-05T02:25:48Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] If illegals could not have an American child, she would not be an American. [/quote] Nobody, to my knowledge, has argued that illegals _can’t_ have an American child. Rather, the argument for a more restrictive reading of the Fourteenth Amendment is that Congress _can_ define such people as noncitizens if they so choose. Even under the more restrictive reading, however, a _retroactive_ denial of citizenship to people that had it under the accepted law of the land at the time of their birth might raise due process issues. So for your mother to lose her citizenship, (a) the Supreme Court would have to rule that the Fourteenth Amendment, at a minimum, does not forbid Congress from denying citizenship to children of illegal aliens; (b) Congress would have to enact such a denial _and make it indefinitely retroactive_; and (c) the Supreme Court would also have to bless the retroactive denial. We’re reaching odds that would make astronomers blanch. I’m not advocating any of this stuff, just making the point that the second and third actions don’t necessarily follow from the first. > [@](#): > > If she was not an American, I would not be one. Not necessarily; she was born here and wouldn’t be an illegal alien even if she were an alien. There was no law against _children_ of illegal aliens living here at the time. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/58 "2006-05-05T02:29:11Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] My Mother was born in the US to illegal aliens (‘Frostbacks,’ as they came over the northern frontier). If illegals could not have an American child, she would not be an American. If she was not an American, I would not be one. Would this impact my military pension if it is determined I accepted my commission under false pretenses? [/QUOTE] From: Secretary of Defense To: Lieutenant Genral Paul Subj: Pending retirement General Despite your sterling record and 50 years of loyal service and despite the fact that you single handedly won the global war on everything, We regret to inform you that your pension benefits are hereby immediately revoked. It has come to our attention that your citizenship and hence your loyalties may be questionable (despite the above mentioned lifetime of service). You are hereby summarily dismissed and are not entitled to any benefits. Thank you for playing. Gee. That would really be fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/59 "2006-05-05T02:31:43Z")
[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig] Not necessarily; she was born here and wouldn’t be an illegal alien even if she were an alien. There was no law against _children_ of illegal aliens living here at the time. [/QUOTE] That IS the intent of the “anchor baby” proposals - to kick them out. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/60 "2006-05-05T02:45:45Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Ah, now you’re hitting your stride: “hate mongers”, “racists”. What took you so long? Finally couldn’t hold it in any more, eh? But for the record, I denounce and despise the racists that may in the Minutemen, the Elks, the PTA, the ACLU, the Nation of Islam, the JDL, or any other organization in which thay may reside. [/QUOTE] You saying in another thread “Thank goodness for the Minutemen” and not taking it back after other doper posted the evidence that they are not removing their racist members, speaks volumes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028.md?page=4)