# Does the 14th amendment really give citizenship to "anchor babies" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028 "2006-05-02T01:07:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/81 "2006-05-05T07:06:08Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Good news that you are not racist, but you are really a willful ignorant. [/QUOTE] I’ve ignored much of your condescension in these threads and explained and re-explained myself. But this little straw is enough. Aside from it not even tracking with anything, it’s childish and inappropriate. I suggest reading a book on how to debate. Or not. Either way, we are done. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/82 "2006-05-05T07:17:00Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I’ve ignored much of your condescension in these threads and explained and re-explained myself. But this little straw is enough. Aside from it not even tracking with anything, it’s childish and inappropriate. I suggest reading a book on how to debate. [/quote] Choosing to deal only with the last point shows who you are, being a willful ignorant on the Minutemen was the conclusion that anyone can get from your anwer. > [@](#): > > Or not. > > Either way, we are done. I’ll let the record speak for that. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/83 "2006-05-05T15:52:38Z")
[http://www.splcenter.org/intel/new/item.jsp?aid=54&printable=1](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/new/item.jsp?aid=54&printable=1) [QUOTE=Southern Poverty Law Center] April 19, 2006 – A prominent anti-immigration leader has secretly urged the nation’s largest neo-Nazi group to launch a campaign of violence and harassment against undocumented workers in the United States. … Laine Lawless, who started a group called Border Guardians last year, sent an April 3 e-mail to Mark Martin, “SS commander” of the Western Ohio unit of the National Socialists Movewment which has 59 chapters in 30 states. It was title “HOW TO GET RID OF THEM!” The e-mail from Lawless, who was also an original member of Chris Simcox’s vigilante militia before it morphed into the Minuteman Project in early 2005, detailed 11 suggestions for ways to harass and terrorize undocumented immigrants, including robbery and “beating up illegals” as they leave their workplace. … “Maybe somr of your warriors for the race would be the kind of people willing to implement some of these ideas” … Lawless was featured in numerous media reports on the first Minuteman Project campaign in April 2005, and has patrolled side-by-side with Minuteman vice-president Carmen Mercer. [/QUOTE] Read the entire article. It’s sickening. They also have a pdf copy of the letter that Lawless sent to the Nazis… [http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/LAWLESS\_EMAIL\_042006.pdf](http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/LAWLESS_EMAIL_042006.pdf) I see regardless, magellan01 insists on defending them. That speaks volumes to me. It also makes it much easier for me to choose sides. I don’t need a reason to hate Nazis, and don’t even have to justify it. It just is. Thanks for simplifying the issue for me! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/84 "2006-05-05T16:27:58Z")
From Orcinus, with photo goodness: > **[Minutemen: A home for extremists](http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html)** > > This is a recent Minutemen rally. And yes, that's a Nazi flag there, third from the right. Well, I've been saying all along that the Minu... [QUOTE=Orcinus] This is a recent Minutemen rally. And yes, that’s a **Nazi flag** there, third from the right. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/85 "2006-05-05T16:30:55Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] [http://www.splcenter.org/intel/new/item.jsp?aid=54&printable=1](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/new/item.jsp?aid=54&printable=1) Read the entire article. It’s sickening. They also have a pdf copy of the letter that Lawless sent to the Nazis… [http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/LAWLESS\_EMAIL\_042006.pdf](http://www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/intel/LAWLESS_EMAIL_042006.pdf) I see regardless, magellan01 insists on defending them. That speaks volumes to me. It also makes it much easier for me to choose sides. [/QUOTE] My estimation of you as a poster and as a thinking person has just plumetted precipitously. Now since you have your mile-wide brush out with your buddy holding the other end, why don’t you paint all white people as racists? After all, some white people are racists, right? Therefore the whole kit an kaboodle share the affliction. Or can it be that their are a majority that are not racist? Just as there is a majority of Minutemen who are honorable human beings who comport themselves accordingly. Don’t strain yourself. Out of curiosity, tell me, what part of my saying I would denounce anyone who is racist AND the organization if it could be proven that the incidence of racism approached that of the KKK was beyond your grasp? [QUOTE=SteveG1] I don’t need a reason to hate Nazis, and don’t even have to justify it. It just is. Thanks for simplifying the issue for me! [/QUOTE] So, if Nazis had never committed even one of their many atrocities, you still would hate them? Interesting. Is it the “z”? Or is it something about the juxtaposition of the other letters. I was a bit puzzled by your response regarding the conclusion you drew concerning me, the Minutemen, and racists, but this was helpful in understanding you. Thanks for simplifying the issue for me. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/86 "2006-05-05T17:23:27Z")
When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends. - Japanese Proverb ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/87 "2006-05-05T17:37:51Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Out of curiosity, tell me, what part of my saying I would denounce anyone who is racist AND the organization if it could be proven that the incidence of racism approached that of the KKK was beyond your grasp? [/quote] You are actually like a follower of Phil, the prince of insufficient light. 🙂 Really, the evidence is there that they are not actively rooting out Nazi or racist elements, I would distance from organizations that tolerate those members, but it is clear now that since they will never reach the level of the KKK, is all kosher to you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/88 "2006-05-05T17:49:21Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends. - Japanese Proverb [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, your character is all to clear. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/89 "2006-05-05T18:11:31Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Out of curiosity, tell me, what part of my saying I would denounce anyone who is racist AND the organization if it could be proven that the incidence of racism approached that of the KKK was beyond your grasp? [/QUOTE] The “saying it” part is perfectly clear. It’s the actually “doing it” part where you’re slipping. C’mon, the _founder of the organization_ has left it because he can’t combat the racist elements of the organization. How much more evidence do you need that the Minutemen’s morals are, at the very least, badly compromised? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/90 "2006-05-05T20:31:42Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] The “saying it” part is perfectly clear. It’s the actually “doing it” part where you’re slipping. C’mon, the _founder of the organization_ has left it because he can’t combat the racist elements of the organization. How much more evidence do you need that the Minutemen’s morals are, at the very least, badly compromised? [/QUOTE] I agree, they _were_ badly compromised. I had a very vague recollection of the particulars of this so I did a little research. It seems to be the case that the people who were in the Goliad chapter were racist dicks. And an organization allows such people to be part of their organization does so at the risk of having the group itself be so characterized. But, the MM chapter in question, Goliad, TX, was, in fact, disbanded a couple of months after it was started, right after Parmley resigned. I looked up the date. It was early September, 2005, before the date of [this article](http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/ts_more.php?id=67057_0_10_0_C). Now I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there are other racist members in the group. But that does not mean the organization itself is racist. There are both Mexicans and blacks in the organization doing principled, noble work. And the fact remains that even with many left-leaning groups hyper-focused on their actions, very few, if any, reports of violence or ugliness have come out of it. So, as I see it we have an honorable organization. One chapter seems to be filled with racists. The state leader can’t solve the problem so he resigns on the principle. Soon afterward, the chapter is disolved by a new leader appointed by the mother organization. That seems quite reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/91 "2006-05-05T22:43:46Z")
I still see they need to do more cleanups if they aspire to be called honorable: [http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=915](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=915) > [@](#): > > COCHISE COUNTY, Ariz. – The predominantly Hispanic towns of Douglas and Naco are connected by the aptly named Border Road, a 20-mile stretch of rocky dirt that runs parallel to a ragged barbed wire fence separating the United States from Mexico. > The night of April 3, armed vigilantes camped along Border Road in a series of watch posts set-up for the Minuteman Project, a month-long action in which revolving casts of 150 to 200 anti-immigration militants wearing cheap plastic “Undocumented Border Patrol Agent” badges mobilized in southeastern Arizona. Their stated goal was to “do the job our government refuses to do” and “protect America” from the “tens of millions of invading illegal aliens who are devouring and plundering our nation.” > > At Station Two, Minuteman volunteers grilled bratwursts and fantasized about murder. > > “It should be legal to kill illegals,” said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West. “Just shoot 'em on sight. That’s my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die.” > > Carl was armed with a revolver chambered to fire shotgun shells. He wore this hand cannon in a holster below a shirt that howled “American bad asses” in red, white and blue. The other vigilantes assigned to Station Two included a pair of self-professed members of the National Alliance, a violent neo-Nazi organization. These men, who gave their names only as Johnny and Michael, were outfitted in full-body camouflage and strapped with semi-automatic pistols. > > Earlier that day, Johnny and Michael had scouted sniper positions in the rolling, cactus-studded foothills north of Border Road, taking compass readings and drawing maps for future reference. > > “I agree completely,” Michael said. “You get up there with a rifle and start shooting four or five of them a week, the other four or five thousand behind them are going to think twice about crossing that line.” And I have the feeling little violence has happened because other “evil” organizations like the ACLU keep an eye on them. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028/92 "2006-05-06T01:38:32Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] I still see they need to do more cleanups if they aspire to be called honorable: [http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=915](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=915) And I have the feeling little violence has happened because other “evil” organizations like the ACLU keep an eye on them. [/QUOTE] I suspect, most likely it would be that other evil organization, the FBI, is watching them. But, these heroes won’t fight the FBI, cuz they have guns too. It’s far easier to be brave and heroic when the Enemy is some poor unarmed schmuck. My dad and uncles fought nazis in WW2. I personally knew people back on the east coast who would wear serial number tattoos for the rest of their lives. There may be people on this board whose relatives experienced their sort of brave heroics first hand. I think we have a pretty good idea what sort of people they are, and what sort of people look the other way. Either throw the nazis out, or quit, or disband the whole thing. Anything less is grossly inadquate. No excuses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-14th-amendment-really-give-citizenship-to-anchor-babies/355028.md?page=4)