# Does the 2nd Amendment provide a right to self defence in one's home? (D.C. suit) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245 "2003-02-11T00:37:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/141 "2003-02-18T17:55:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*When you say “current gun craze”, do you mean the time period from 1776 -2003? \*\* I meant current as in over 10 000 americans a year killed by guns. In britain i believe that to be under a hundred. (the figures comes from the movie “Bowling for Columbine”) ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/142 "2003-02-18T18:02:54Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by RandySpears_ > \*\*Yes but consider an analogy with the Bible (and the constitution and the bible certainly seem to be the two written documents that makes the foundation of american reality). The bible also contains certain parts that just don’t make it in modern society. Like for instance the part about God annihilating the sodomites. > > The problem then, with revising these documents, only by way of interpretation, is that the actual wording in the original text, still lends some unnessecary weight to individuals who happen to have just those opinions.\*\* What should we do? Pop open the case with the constitution in it and go after it with correction fluid? It is not the fault of the legal system that some people fail to understand that the literal words on that page have been effectively modified by various court decisions and laws passed by either the federal congress or state legislatures(depending on the section/clause/ammendment). The effective wording of the 2nd ammendment is different than the original wording. This is a simple fact of US law. The constitution is a living document, ammended, adjudicated, etc. through the various legislative/judicial processes. It might be better if we published an “updated” version, taking into account the various clarifications/modifications made by legislation or decisions over the years, but such a document would almost certainly be unusable by the common man and legal experts already know they need to look at decisions and other laws to determine specifics. **minty** : My point was that courts are not bound by original intent, and in fact, have “updated” laws contrary to the original intent because changes in either technology or society make the original law either unenforcable or inapplicable. Personally I’d rather see them just strike down the law and force legislatures to make a new one if it is needed, but legislating from the bench does happen. I apologize if I confused these practices with the common uses of “strict constructionalist” or other terms. I don’t work with these terms often enough to track their common use definitions. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/143 "2003-02-18T18:16:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*I meant current as in over 10 000 americans a year killed by guns. In britain i believe that to be under a hundred. > > (the figures comes from the movie “Bowling for Columbine”) \*\* The murder rate in the U.S. has _always_ been higher than that of Britain. We have a higher non-gun murder rate, too. Do you think that’s due to gun ownership as well? You also must consider, as [this article](http://reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml) does, that muder isn’t the only sort of crime out there: > [@](#): > > Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England’s inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England’s rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America’s, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world’s crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people. Lordy, we’re getting way the hell off topic now. I move that this thread be killed out of mercy. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/144 "2003-02-18T18:26:41Z")
Mtgman: Hm i must admit that i have no perfect undertanding of the US legislative system. But what i learned in school was that you have the constitution, and then ju have actual rulings of courts, ultimately the Supreme Court that “interprets” the constitution. So when you say that an “updated” version of the constitution would alienate the common man, you mean that is because you’d have to reprint the whole thing with the later rulings that are for the moment in effect in setting up prejudicates? Did i get that right? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/145 "2003-02-18T18:34:40Z")
Max Torque: I see no source for these figures in the text you cite. Even if they are correct (which they of course very well may be), I would suspect they are as statistics go, seriously thwarted. You know picking out a very suitable time span for your purposes and so on. But for the hell of it: The article seems to argue that other crimes are higher in Britain, such as burglary and assault in the home. So then given a choice of to bad things: would you rather (1) have your house broken into, with possible assault, or (2) be shot to death? ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/146 "2003-02-18T18:37:42Z")
**RandySears** wrote: > [@](#): > > (A) My point was just this: that the americans unability to rewrite the parts of their constitution that is not up do date leads to your current **gun-craze**. Emphasis mine. There in itself is part of the problem. There is no “gun-craze”. What you have is a significant portion of the population of this country that has been around and used firearms their entire lives, and treat a firearm as just another tool in the drawer like a hammer or a flashlight (albeit with a large dose of safety respect). What you have is a “save the children” craze started by anti-gun elites who’ve manipulated the media to have you believe that children in this country are dying at phenomenal rates due to firearms. Rosie O’Donnell firmly believes that no one except the police or military should own a firearm, except for her children’s bodyguards. Then-President Clinton, during one of his speeches about gun control, mentioned that 13 children a day are killed by firearms. A news item by a local news station mentioned that 10 children a day are killed by firearms. Dr. Phil on his show the other day mentioned that five children a day are killed by firearms. Why does the number keep going down? Because the stats are refuted by the CDC in plain black and white. But if you tell a lie often enough, people begin to think it’s true. As an aside, Yo! **minty, UncleBeer** , what crawled up y’alls backsides? Did I miss a post or something in the pit between you two? Do you guys need to give back the “opposite sides but respectful debater” award or what?!?! ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/147 "2003-02-18T18:42:53Z")
Here is a bbc article on crime statistics that says that the UK citizen in 2001 ran the lowest risk of becoming a crime victim since the studies began in 1981. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/1619107.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1619107.stm) Statistics, Schmatistics. You still have 10 000 of your fellow citizens dying each year by guns-crimes. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/148 "2003-02-18T18:48:42Z")
BF: So you are saying my figure of 10 000+ a year is false? I’d like to see that backed by some figures of your own. Furthermore I assume you percieve the battle for your freedom being fought by on the one side Dr. Phil and the anti-gun **elite** (emphasis mine), and on the other side, yourself, the weapons industry lobby, and the NRA? ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/149 "2003-02-18T19:38:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*BF: > > So you are saying my figure of 10 000+ a year is false? I’d like to see that backed by some figures of your own. > > Furthermore I assume you percieve the battle for your freedom being fought by on the one side Dr. Phil and the anti-gun **elite** (emphasis mine), and on the other side, yourself, the weapons industry lobby, and the NRA? \*\* No, I and I think most of the pro-gun side do not dispute the 10K number. According to the [CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr50/nvsr50_15.pdf) > [@](#): > > [ol] > [li]In 1999 a total of 28,874 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States, down nearly 6 percent from the 30,625 deaths in 1998.[/li][li]In 2000 a total of 28,663 persons died from firearm injuries in[/li]the United States (tables 18 and 19). This number was 0.7 percent > lower than the 28,874 deaths in 1999. > [li]Firearm suicide and homicide,the two major component causes, accounted for 57.9 and 37.7 percent,respectively, of all firearm injury deaths in 2000. The other[/li]components—firearm accidents, firearm injuries of undetermined > intent, and legal intervention involving firearms—accounted for 2.7, > 0.8, and 0.9 percent, respectively. > [li]Among those aged 19 years and under, the number of firearm deaths was 10.1 percent lower than in 1999. Despite the decrease, in 2000 those aged 19 years and under[/li]accounted for 10.6 percent of all firearm deaths. > population (table 25). > [/ol] As for whos’s what, I’m an NRA member. My money goes to support a gun organization that has supported firearms safety, hunting, and history for 137 years. The firearms industry does not influence my opinion, other than producing a product that I want to use and can afford to purchase. I’ve posted this in a way-back GD thread and think it will be relevant for your information. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/11/02/60II/main68650.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/11/02/60II/main68650.shtml) > [@](#): > > If the gun industry ever begins to mass produce smart guns, the biggest opponent of the idea won’t be the National Rifle Association, but an influential arm of the gun control movement. > > “The smart gun is a hoax. It’s a very seductive hoax, but nevertheless it’s a hoax,” says Tom Diaz, author and senior analyst for the Violence Policy Center, a Washington, D.C., advocacy group that favors a _total ban on handguns_, including smart guns. > > “At bottom, this is a ploy, a very clever ploy, by the gun industry to use your tax dollars and my tax dollars to expand its markets,” says Diaz. > > “You will never be able to come up with a system that’s going to make handguns safe, to make handguns go away, until we say, ‘We’ve got an industry that pours onto our markets millions of deadly, lethal killing instruments. And we’ve got to stop that,’” he observes. Sorry this went kinda long… ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/150 "2003-02-18T19:54:34Z")
BF: So what is the point in arguing about whether it’s 5 or 10 children kills a day, when you’ll admit to 28 000 person kills in a year? The first point is only a (striking) illustration of the second. For sure it may be so that the weapons industry is not lobbying the NRA. They don’t have to, as you kindly pointed out. But i believe it to be a fact that both the NRA and the gun industry is taking equal part in lobbying efforts, as the anti-gun elite you were talking about. The NRA, as i understand it, do stage rallies in denver, right after the columbine shootings, as well as supporting “firearms safety, hunting, and history”. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/151 "2003-02-18T19:57:32Z")
[From this site](http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=%5CCulture%5Carchive%5C200302%5CCUL20030217b.html) > [@](#): > > “It’s hard for me to rationalize any particular need or purpose” for the 500 Magnum, said Rep. Danny Davis (D-Ill.). “I think guns are made to kill people. That’s my opinion.” > > “ **You don’t go out hunting deer with a revolver** ,” Davis said. “Those of us who live in big, urban centers have a different fear and a different take than some people who may live in different environments.” Emphasis mine. I forgot I was going to add this to my previous post. A perfect example of the point many of us pro-gun types try to make. Here’s this elected official giving his opinion with no clue. I’m sure the thousands of subscribers to Handgunner magazine will refute the “hunt deer with a revolver” statement, since that’s what a significant number of them do. I’m so sure some gang-banger in Chicago want’s to carry around this four and a half pound, 5 shot revolver that retails for $1000 when he can get a three pound Tec-9 with a 30 round magazine for half that price on the black market. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/152 "2003-02-18T20:19:22Z")
**RandySpears** wrote: > [@](#): > > The NRA, as i understand it, do stage rallies in denver, right after the columbine shootings, as well as supporting “firearms safety, hunting, and history”. Thank you for emphasizing my point on disinformation. The Denver convention in Colorado had been planned months in advance. It’s the NRA’s annual meeting to elect officers, etc. Thousands of dollars was spent and would have been lost by the local hoteliers, etc., if the NRA flat-out cancelled. As it was they scaled back the convention from a week to a couple of days in respect for that tragedy. As for the statistics, you can see I’m not trying to hide anything. If you read them with any thought at all, it would immediately strike you that over 16K of the deaths are by suicide. And of course some perspective is required, as 28K is less than .01 percent of the total population. In that link to the CDC, you’ll see that death by firearm related causes is a distant 14th in the list of things you could die from in the US. And accidental deaths by firearms in the US for children under 14 is around 800, which comes out to around 2 a day. Rough stuff, especially if you’re the parent of that deceased child. But, that’s a smaller number than those who drown in swimming pools every year. ---
**Author:** ![Docklands](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/47e85d/32.png) [@Docklands](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docklands)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/153 "2003-02-18T20:28:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DirkGntly_ > > I am a Concealed Handgun Licensee. There has been mentioned by Texican that he was mugged at gunpoint and had he been given the opportunity, would have plugged the mugger in the back as the perp was vacating the scene. As a CHL holder, it would be perfectly legal for me to do so. In fact, as a CHL holder, if my house has just been robbed after darkfall, and I was present, though I did not actually see the robbery, if I see a person fleeing (obviously running, etc.) the general vicinity of my home, with something that resembles an item from my home, then I can drop the potential perp like a stone, with no legal consequences. If that’s true, then that’s some seriously fucked up shit right there. I’m so very greatful that I don’t live in your country ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/154 "2003-02-18T20:58:53Z")
> [@](#): > > If that’s true, then that’s some seriously fucked up shit right there. > > I’m so very greatful that I don’t live in your country I’m sure Tony Martin feels differently. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/155 "2003-02-18T22:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\ ***RandySpears** wrote: > Thank you for emphasizing my point on disinformation. The Denver convention in Colorado had been planned months in advance. It’s the NRA’s annual meeting to elect officers, etc. Thousands of dollars was spent and would have been lost by the local hoteliers, etc., if the NRA flat-out cancelled. As it was they scaled back the convention from a week to a couple of days in respect for that tragedy. > \*\* Let’s not forget: If the NRA did cancel that rally entirely, anti-gun groups all over the country would be screaming that the NRA felt guilty about it because they were responsible for things like this happening, etc. No matter what the NRA did about that situation, they were going to look bad. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/156 "2003-02-18T22:17:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*Hm, in what specific way is it that (B)? Are you refering to Rights of Man, as inherent in some natural state? Then it comes down to philosophical reasoning, and really history shows that such a right can at best be upheld in a particular society, as the american. \*\* Yes, that’s what I’m referring to. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > We haven’t seen the right to bear arms in the declaration of human rights as of yet… \*\* Because it’s socialist dreck. > [@](#): > > \*\* > (A) My point was just this: that the americans unability to rewrite the parts of their constitution that is not up do date leads to your current gun-craze. \*\* If the Constitution could be arbitrarily rewritten, it would be entirely meaningless - if you had any knowledge of the history and purpose of it, you’d understand why that’d defeat the entire purpose. And there’s no “gun craze”, as others have pointed out - there’s a media craze. Remember how last summer (or was it the summer before) was “summer of the shark”? The media made it sound like we had a huge shark epidemic that was killing gazillions - and the reality is that shark attacks were actually DOWN by a few percentage points that year. The media can skew perspective on issues to stir up hysteria - they can make us think that meterorites falling out of the sky and blowing up orphanages is a huge problem if they want to. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/157 "2003-02-18T22:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*Here is a bbc article on crime statistics that says that the UK citizen in 2001 ran the lowest risk of becoming a crime victim since the studies began in 1981. > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/1619107.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1619107.stm) > > Statistics, Schmatistics. You still have 10 000 of your fellow citizens dying each year by guns-crimes. \*\* Holy crap, this is so intellectually dishonest I almost can’t believe it. Have you looked at the methodology of the British Crime Survey, the study cited in the article you linked? Let’s take a peek at a relevant section from [the “Crime in England and Wales 2001-2002” report from the UK Home Office (PDF)](http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb702.pdf), which partially relies upon the BCS for its results: > [@](#): > > The BCS excludes so-called victimless crimes (e.g. illegal drug use), crimes such as murder where the victim is no longer available for interview, and fraud. In other words, **they do not include muder when calculating their “drop in crime”.** How convenient. If you want an _accurate_ portrayal of the crime rate, you have to include “crimes reported to police”, which the above-linked PDF shows (in chapter 6) as being on the rise. Yes, there were more than 10,000 firearm homicides in the U.S. last year (10,417, to be precise, according to the CDC). The U.S. also has a population almost 6 times as large, has more metropolitan areas with populations over 1 million, and has more ethnic and linguistic diversity among its population than Britain. You’re surprised our murder rate is higher? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/158 "2003-02-18T22:48:21Z")
As to the NRA convention, sure it was rubbing your noses in it. The convention in a way was rubbing columbine’s nose in it. Still you cant construe it as anything but in the baddest of taste celebrating the glory of owning your very own semi-automatic at that time. SenorBeef: Then, it’s your position is that, in the Natural State no one could stop you from carrying arms. My response would be: In that Natural State no one could stop a better shooter than you (or someone with a better gun) from killing you and raping your family. Fortunately in more civilized times, most nations (the overwhelming majority of **democratic** states even - just to counter the pro-arms bull about only repressive states wanting to regulate arms ownership) have laws regulating shooting and raping of humans, as well as gun-use. Then again, in the real natural state no guns existed, there simply was no issue. As to the constitution being “arbitralily” rewritten, i was merely suggesting that it would be a good thing if the american public could even consider **counciously** rewriting the more out-of-date parts of the constitution. I am aware of the history and purpose of the american constitution. I take this to mean the “purpose” of the constitution at the time, and not some “godly” purpose for the americans as a chosen people. But you didn’t mean that anyway, right? The purpose as i percieve it was to lay down the foundation for a new form of government, after independence was won from the Brits. I don’t believe the purpose was an eternally valid document, applying to all societies in all times. If it seems so it is because of the popular rethorics of that time, and because american debate often encourage this popular myth. Even if this was the purpose of the country founding fathers, they were wrong. There can exist no such document. Nor any such men that writes one. ---
**Author:** ![Docklands](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/47e85d/32.png) [@Docklands](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docklands)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/159 "2003-02-18T22:54:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by BF_ > > I’m sure Tony Martin feels differently. Tony Martin went to jail for the despicable and illegal actions he took. I don’t know a single person who wasn’t appalled by Mr. Martin’s actions. The fact that according to the post I quoted, this could be legal anywhere in the US, and that some posters would find his actions laudable, is frankly disgusting. I reiterate that you couldn’t pay me enough to live there. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245/160 "2003-02-18T22:57:24Z")
Well Max Torque, none of those crimes [murder, fraud, drug use] were among those your pro-gun website “facts” claimed to be on an alarming rise in the UK (as a concequence of their gun control policy). I think we can safely say that “fraud” is pretty unrelated to gun-control. I would say “drug use” is pretty unrelated as well, unless depriving citizens of their guns makes them turn drug-addicts. Murder finally: the original argument of your quoted site was that **while there were less gun-murders** these other crimes alledgedly, blabla. Which according to that survey is total bull. So the US population is 6 times higher than the UKs? How interesting then that gun-murders in the US are more than 100 times higher than in the UK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-2nd-amendment-provide-a-right-to-self-defence-in-ones-home-d-c-suit/154245.md?page=9)