# Does the bad engineering in "The Cold Equations" ruin the story for you? (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [March 20, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384 "2011-03-20T19:00:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/181 "2013-01-08T05:27:46Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I don’t disagree, but I also don’t remember being assigned Philip K. Dick books in high school. The greats of the genre are credited very little as authors of “important literature.” well, that’s on high school. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/182 "2013-01-08T05:59:17Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I don’t disagree, but I also don’t remember being assigned Philip K. Dick books in high school. The greats of the genre are credited very little as authors of “important literature.” Again, without getting into “No True Scotsman” what is “important literature”? ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/183 "2013-01-08T06:25:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again, without getting into “No True Scotsman” what is “important literature”? Damned if I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/184 "2013-01-08T06:50:19Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I work for a company with ostensibly hi-tech security–cameras, access badges, security personnel, RFID trackers, etc.–but in the end it’s almost trivial for someone off the street to get inside. And once inside you can travel almost at will (some internal labs have additional security, but this is even more trivial to bypass). As proven by the fact that we’ve had multiple breaches of security where people did just that. They tend to get caught–but only after the fact. Does your company: (a) share a border and many facilities with a junior high school, so there are frequently kids right outside the secure area (b) keep something inside the security area that kids would really really like, such as ponies, and everyone knows about it (c) but it turns out that these ponies are venomous and deadly (d) but you don’t bother publicizing (c) very well If so, then maybe you would take security a bit more seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/185 "2013-01-08T08:17:36Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I don’t disagree, but I also don’t remember being assigned Philip K. Dick books in high school. The greats of the genre are credited very little as authors of “important literature.” When did you go to high school? Dick recently got a Library of America volume. And the high school English collections my kids had had lots of sf in them. BTW, if you think things do happen in real life because of people doing insane and irrational things, I advise you to read the history of the financial crisis. “Think that housing prices would never go down? What moron would do that?” Only most of the finance industry. And, another BTW, this story was written before knives had to have warning labels saying they were sharp. I can imagine that in a space environment they didn’t have a lot of spare people to guard every one of the zillion dangerous areas, and they also figured most people were smart enough not to do dangerous stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/186 "2013-01-08T10:08:30Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (a) share a border and many facilities with a junior high school, so there are frequently kids right outside the secure area The character in the story isn’t a junior high schooler–she’s at least 16, and probably around 20. There are a million things in this world that could easily kill a child and are protected by somewhere between a cyclone fence and nothing. DrDeth’s reference to the “attractive nuisance doctrine” is ridiculous for all kinds of reasons, but perhaps the most important is that it only requires a reasonable effort. We have all kinds of interesting things where I work, but one thing that comes to mind is the liquid nitrogen storage. Obviously, this could severely injure or kill someone. It’s protected–by a pretty tall fence. So, effectively no protection at all to anyone willing to go through a little effort. When I was a kid, liquid nitrogen was about a hundred times more interesting than ponies (who am I kidding–that’s still true today), and that’s exactly the kind of thing I might sneak into if I were motivated enough. We also don’t know that there weren’t warnings. We live in a world today where warnings are often well past the point of “boy who cried wolf”–they’re plastered on all kinds of perfectly safe things (the CA Prop 65 carcinogen warnings come to mind). So we ignore them. The story’s character may well have ignored these warnings, thinking that they are just scare tactics or useless nagging. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/187 "2013-01-08T15:22:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > When did you go to high school? Dick recently got a Library of America volume. And the high school English collections my kids had had lots of sf in them. > > BTW, if you think things do happen in real life because of people doing insane and irrational things, I advise you to read the history of the financial crisis. “Think that housing prices would never go down? What moron would do that?” Only most of the finance industry. > > And, another BTW, this story was written before knives had to have warning labels saying they were sharp. I can imagine that in a space environment they didn’t have a lot of spare people to guard every one of the zillion dangerous areas, and they also figured most people were smart enough not to do dangerous stuff. But it doesn’t sound like they _even told people why stowing away would be dangerous!_ The story is a laughable failure on every level imaginable. The fundamental problem with the story isn’t even the implausibility of the scenario. It’s the fact that in the scenario as stated, the moral culpability (and the civil liability, come to that) for this ridiculous security misstep _falls squarely on the crew._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/188 "2013-01-08T16:26:36Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > DrDeth’s reference to the “attractive nuisance doctrine” is ridiculous for all kinds of reasons, but perhaps the most important is that it only requires a reasonable effort. > > We also don’t know that there weren’t warnings. . A Locked door being Unreasonable? Maybe even a guard? Why no pre-flight check? Remember, each ship carried a blaster for exactly this reason- stowaways which must be blasted and jettisoned into space. There is a warning- a “UNAUTHORIZED PERSONNEL KEEP OUT!” sign. Nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/189 "2013-01-08T16:38:36Z")
We do know what the signage was. She saw and went past a sign that said “authorized personnel only”. That’s a sign that you can find all over the place, and the vast majority of places with such a sign, it doesn’t indicate any hazard at all. Most places, if you ignore such a sign, you really will just get escorted back out, or a small fine at worst, if you even receive any punishment at all. The sign that _should_ have been up would have been something like **! DANGER !** Lethal hazard beyond this point Weight-critical area [sub]All materials beyond this point must be weighed to within a precision of 5 grams, and weights reported to quartermaster on duty. Unauthorized material or persons will be ejected to space, and anyone leaving unauthorized material will be subject to a minimum fine of $10,000 or a minimum prison term of 5 years.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/190 "2013-01-08T18:24:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again, without getting into “No True Scotsman” what is “important literature”? Let’s not forget Mary Shelly, H.G. Wells and Jules Verne. One of the bestselling modern authors, Stephen King, has written a lot of science fiction. _The Running Man,_ _Tommyknockers,_ _Under the Dome,_ and many of his short stories are all science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/191 "2013-01-08T18:38:06Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Let’s not forget Mary Shelly, H.G. Wells and Jules Verne. One of the bestselling modern authors, Stephen King, has written a lot of science fiction. _The Running Man,_ _Tommyknockers,_ _Under the Dome,_ and many of his short stories are all science fiction. I don’t think his publisher would agree with you. And anyway, Stephen King is not considered “great literature” by literary illuminati. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/192 "2013-01-08T19:15:34Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I don’t think his publisher would agree with you. And anyway, Stephen King is not considered “great literature” by literary illuminati. Again, what is “great literature as defined by literary illuminati” Who are they? When did they make this definition? Really, after a bit, when someone asks you repeatedly to back up your assumptions, you need to either put up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/193 "2013-01-08T19:33:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Remember, each ship carried a blaster for exactly this reason- stowaways which must be blasted and jettisoned into space. Ironically, the blaster weighs like 150 lbs. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/194 "2013-01-08T19:45:08Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I don’t think his publisher would agree with you. And anyway, Stephen King is not considered “great literature” by literary illuminati. I suspect King’s publisher would acknowledge that there’s no objective method for putting a book in one genre or the other and would agree with me that you could place some of his work in the science fiction genre quite easily. Put some of King’s work in the science fiction area and you limit his audience in a way that putting him in adult fiction does not. So please, if you contend that many of King’s books I’ve mentioned is not science fiction then please come up with a good argument for why they aren’t. Because “his publishers wouldn’t agree with you” isn’t a good argument. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/195 "2013-01-08T19:45:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A Locked door being Unreasonable? Maybe even a guard? Why no pre-flight check? No one said there weren’t security personnel about–just that they weren’t effective. She specifically says “I just sort of walked in when no one was looking my way.” That turns out to be an effective way of bypassing security at any number of real-world locations. That the pre-flight check should have caught it is a more compelling argument–but as the story described, this is an event that happens perhaps once in a pilot’s lifetime. People make mistakes over that kind of timeframe, and often it’s only luck that they live to tell about it. I’d bet that any given pilot screws up a fuel or weight & balance calculation any number of times in their life. It’s rare that it causes any sort of problem, but occasionally it causes a disaster. Complacency breeds carelessness. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/196 "2013-01-08T19:46:19Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I suspect King’s publisher would acknowledge that there’s no objective method for putting a book in one genre or the other and would agree with me that you could place some of his work in the science fiction genre quite easily. \*\*Put some of King’s work in the science fiction area and you limit his audience in a way that putting him in adult fiction does not. \*\* > > So please, if you contend that many of King’s books I’ve mentioned is not science fiction then please come up with a good argument for why they aren’t. Because “his publishers wouldn’t agree with you” isn’t a good argument. Now you’re starting to get it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/197 "2013-01-08T19:49:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > We do know what the signage was. She saw and went past a sign that said “authorized personnel only”. That’s a sign that you can find all over the place, and the vast majority of places with such a sign, it doesn’t indicate any hazard at all. Most places, if you ignore such a sign, you really will just get escorted back out, or a small fine at worst, if you even receive any punishment at all. The sign that _should_ have been up would have been something like I always liked how James Cameron captured this detail in his film: **WARNING** R.M.S. Titanic is a modern high-speed luxury cruise ship. While White Star Line has taken every reasonible measure to ensure unmatched safety and comfort for her passengers, it should be noted that Titanic is not literally “unsinkable”, and this term should be regarded as no more than a marketing device. Like any seagoing vessel, Titanic may be subjected to unexpected forces that exceed her design strength, creating a state of less than optimal bouyancy. Passengers should also note that for your comfort and convenience, White Star Line does not provide lifeboats to accomodate the entire ships complement. Should the ship encounter a situation of reduced floatability, passengers are encouraged to make their own arrangements for returning to shore. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/198 "2013-01-08T19:50:03Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > No one said there weren’t security personnel about–just that they weren’t effective. She specifically says “I just sort of walked in when no one was looking my way.” That turns out to be an effective way of bypassing security at any number of real-world locations. > > That the pre-flight check should have caught it is a more compelling argument–but as the story described, this is an event that happens perhaps once in a pilot’s lifetime. People make mistakes over that kind of timeframe, and often it’s only luck that they live to tell about it. I’d bet that any given pilot screws up a fuel or weight & balance calculation any number of times in their life. It’s rare that it causes any sort of problem, but occasionally it causes a disaster. Complacency breeds carelessness. Sure, but the author of the story is asking the reader to assign blame to the stowaway, not the careless, complacent crew. That’s why it blows. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/199 "2013-01-08T19:52:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I always liked how James Cameron captured this detail in his film: > > **WARNING** > R.M.S. Titanic is a modern high-speed luxury cruise ship. While White Star Line has taken every reasonible measure to ensure > unmatched safety and comfort for her passengers, it should be noted that Titanic is not literally “unsinkable”, and this term should > be regarded as no more than a marketing device. Like any seagoing vessel, Titanic may be subjected to unexpected forces that > exceed her design strength, creating a state of less than optimal bouyancy. > > Passengers should also note that for your comfort and convenience, White Star Line does not provide lifeboats to accomodate the > entire ships complement. Should the ship encounter a situation of reduced floatability, passengers are encouraged to make their > own arrangements for returning to shore. And when the Titanic sank and a bunch of passengers drowned, did anybody blame the passengers? ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384/200 "2013-01-08T20:14:11Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > (A) this is your own insertion, and (B) isn’t supported by anything in the text and (C) there’s a low-class civilian _maid_, which seems unlikely for a military vessel. Certainly granted that this is all my speculation, but there is very little described about the organizational structure of the mothership at all. If it worked like the Enterprise where everyone is hyper-competent an there is a nearly sapient computer tracking everyone, then it \*would \*be strange that the girl got onto the EDS. But, there are a lot of organizations that are a lot less competent than Starfleet, and frankly it is more realistic for them to be that way. The story isn’t “we’re spacing cute girls left and right – there goes the tenth one this week”, it’s “on one very bad day some security guard was a bit inattentive and a pre-flight check was rushed and this horrible thing happened”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bad-engineering-in-the-cold-equations-ruin-the-story-for-you-open-spoilers/575384.md?page=11)