# Does the Bible specifically outlaw rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 9, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645 "2008-05-09T01:46:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/21 "2008-05-09T16:30:43Z")
Not to mention the story of the [rape of Tamar](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=13&version=31&context=chapter) by her half-brother. Although in that case, the rapist did not want to marry his victim, so her brother Absalom took care of her. The way the story runs seems to suggest that the later killing of Ammon the rapist by Absalom was another case like the killing of the rapists of Dinah. Ammon, being the king’s son, was more or less above the law (especially since King David did not seem to be ready to do much to intervene). So the blood guilt of the rape was expunged by the killing of the rapist. Another factor to keep in mind is that there wasn’t a well-developed police force, and often the community was dealing with a situation after it had occurred. For example, see the ghastly story of the [Levite’s concubine](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=7&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter) being raped to death, which ends up in civil war and kidnappings. As the writer of Judges remarks rather grimly at the end of the book > [@Judges 21:25](#): > > In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit. I don’t think you can say that the writers of the Bible necessarily approved of everything they wrote about. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/22 "2008-05-09T16:36:12Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] Really? That assumes that the Sons of Jacob are the “good guys” and what they are doing is _morally right_ - which in turn implies that Jacob is wrong. Remember, he calls their acts “odious”. Who is the good guys here - Jacob or his sons? Or neither? Or are they both partly right and partly wrong - Jacob right tio want peace but wrong to allow the rape of his daughter, and the sons right to not allow the rape of their sister - but wrong in indulging in rape and murder in revenge? [/QUOTE] Fair enough, but either the sons are wrong for raping the captured women or Jacob was wrong to tacitly accept his own daughter’s rape… ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/23 "2008-05-09T17:12:38Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Fair enough, but either the sons are wrong for raping the captured women or Jacob was wrong to tacitly accept his own daughter’s rape… [/QUOTE] My point is that it is only an “either/or” situation if one is of the opinion that there is a “good guy” in the story; that is, a person who is always in the right (and everyone else = wrong). In my opinion, as previously stated, basically everyone in this story did “wrong” (except the daughter who was acted upon, not acting). The father was wrong to accept the rape of his daughter and the sons were wrong to take a brutal and evil revenge for that rape, breaking all of the principles of peaceful co-existence (and raping a bunch of women themselves in the bargain). In fact, the OT is full of stories of what are supposed to be the heroes and good guys doing basically bad stuff (or where it isn’t so obvious who the good guys are, or even if there are any). My favorite example is the death-bed speech of King David to his son Solomon in 1 Kings 2, where after a sermon on being good and obeying God, he calls for Solomon to take bloody vengence on his enemies. > [@](#): > > 1(A) When David’s time to die drew near, he commanded Solomon his son, saying, 2(B) "I am about to go the way of all the earth.(C) Be strong, and show yourself a man, 3and keep the charge of the LORD your God, walking in his ways and keeping his statutes, his commandments, his rules, and his testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses,(D) that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn, 4that the LORD may(E) establish his word that he spoke concerning me, saying,(F) ‘If your sons pay close attention to their way,(G) to walk before me in faithfulness with all their heart and with all their soul,(H) you shall not lack[a] a man on the throne of Israel.’ > > 5"Moreover, you also know what Joab the son of Zeruiah(I) did to me, how he dealt with the two commanders of the armies of Israel,(J) Abner the son of Ner,(K) and Amasa the son of Jether, whom he killed, avenging in time of peace for blood that had been shed in war, and putting the blood of war[c] on the belt around his[d] waist and on the sandals on his feet. 6Act therefore(L) according to your wisdom, but do not let his gray head go down to Sheol in peace. 7But deal loyally with the sons of(M) Barzillai the Gileadite, and let them be(N) among those who eat at your table,(O) for with such loyalty[e] they met me when I fled from Absalom your brother. 8And there is also with you(P) Shimei the son of Gera, the Benjaminite from Bahurim, who cursed me with a grievous curse on the day(Q) when I went to Mahanaim.(R) But when he came down to meet me at the Jordan, I swore to him by the LORD, saying, ‘I will not put you to death with the sword.’ 9Now therefore do not hold him guiltless,(S) for you are a wise man. You will know what you ought to do to him, and you shall(T) bring his gray head down with blood to Sheol." I like this speech because it seems to me so authentic - the King recites the trite stuff first about being nice and obeying God, and then in the second part (after the “Moreover, …” gets on with the gritty business of kingship - murdering enemies: “ **for you are a wise man**. You will know what you ought to do to him, and **you shall bring his gray head down with blood to Sheol** ”. (“Sheol” = “the underworld”, or loosely “hell”). The term “wise man” must have originally meant much what the term “wise guy” means to a gangster. 😃 I like to think of this scene written in 1930s gangster-speak: “Sonny, you’se a wise guy, you know whats to be done with Lenny the Moose - send him bloody to hell!” ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/24 "2008-05-09T17:14:06Z")
The thing is, the writers of these old Testament books weren’t writing didactic children’s stories, where the point of the story is that you’re supposed to act like the protagonist of the story did. Even if you accept the Bible as divinely inspired, you’re not supposed to believe that. The patriarchs from Genesis aren’t supposed to be plaster saints with the moral of the story underlined in red. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/25 "2008-05-09T17:28:40Z")
I’m trying to remember where I heard it, so that I can guess how much credence to give it, but I once heard someone state that some of these rapes were cases of younger men claiming girls their own age. The girls were otherwise going to be given in marriage by their fathers to older men, ones who could come up with a good enough bride price, or to the son of an older man who was willing to make the payment. You have to remember that disobedience and unchastity could both be punished as severely as the father liked, and that he was expected to punish it severely. So the girls did not have the option of choosing their own husband, at least not in any open way. However they married, it would be a transaction between men. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/26 "2008-05-09T17:39:41Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] The thing is, the writers of these old Testament books weren’t writing didactic children’s stories, where the point of the story is that you’re supposed to act like the protagonist of the story did. Even if you accept the Bible as divinely inspired, you’re not supposed to believe that. The patriarchs from Genesis aren’t supposed to be plaster saints with the moral of the story underlined in red. [/QUOTE] Exactly my point. Indeed, the fact that the stories are difficult adds interest to them, IMO. Sometimes, I think that much of the criticism of these stories comes from a lack of appreciation of that fact - people are educated to expect didactic stories, fail to get them when they actually read the thing, and are either outraged or assume that they _are_ didactic stories and the lesson is “act badly”. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/27 "2008-05-09T18:24:31Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] The thing is, the writers of these old Testament books weren’t writing didactic children’s stories, where the point of the story is that you’re supposed to act like the protagonist of the story did. Even if you accept the Bible as divinely inspired, you’re not supposed to believe that. The patriarchs from Genesis aren’t supposed to be plaster saints with the moral of the story underlined in red. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Malthus] Exactly my point. Indeed, the fact that the stories are difficult adds interest to them, IMO. Sometimes, I think that much of the criticism of these stories comes from a lack of appreciation of that fact - people are educated to expect didactic stories, fail to get them when they actually read the thing, and are either outraged or assume that they _are_ didactic stories and the lesson is “act badly”. [/QUOTE] How about those unfortunate ignorant souls (such as myself perhaps) who were, in god’s infinite kindness, created lacking in the wisdom and clarity of thought to see these stories at anything but face value? Am I doomed to an eternity of pain for my lack of understanding, which was really caused by god in the first place? Please give me a glimpse of what deeper meaning you see in the story of the man who first willingly gave his daughters up to be raped, later impregnated them, and was seen by god to be just and righteous. I am god’s most beloved child right? Could he not summon the pity to provide me with a lesson I could understand and work with? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/28 "2008-05-09T19:03:28Z")
[QUOTE=Mojo Pin] How about those unfortunate ignorant souls (such as myself perhaps) who were, in god’s infinite kindness, created lacking in the wisdom and clarity of thought to see these stories at anything but face value? Am I doomed to an eternity of pain for my lack of understanding, which was really caused by god in the first place? Please give me a glimpse of what deeper meaning you see in the story of the man who first willingly gave his daughters up to be raped, later impregnated them, and was seen by god to be just and righteous. I am god’s most beloved child right? Could he not summon the pity to provide me with a lesson I could understand and work with? [/QUOTE] Well, sure. 😃 First, you should know that in tribal level societies the obligations of hospitality are paramount - they are tied very strongly to the notion of honor. Once you take someone in as a guest, they are sacred. The men of Sodom threaten to rape two strangers who have appeared and who have been accepted as guests by Lot. Not only are these two strangers Lot’s guests, they are angels who have come to judge the city, to destroy it if it is “bad”. Lot begs the men not to do the gang-rape, and even offers his daughters in their place - a horrible act true, but consider that (1) guests are sacred; and (2) the risk that the angels, if angered, will destroy the city - Lot and daughters included. Later, God does destroy the city (allowing Lot and his daughters to escape - Lot’s wife looks back and gets turned to salt). He escapes to a cave in an uninhabited wilderness. His daughters believe that God has destroyed humanity - except them - Noah’s flood style. So they in effect drug and rape dad, specifically to preserve the human race: > [@](#): > > 30Now Lot went up out of Zoar and(W) lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. 31And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 33So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose. > > 34The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 35So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab.(X) He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.c He is the father of the Ammonites to this day. Now, incest is bad and all, but at least according to this account the fault was not Lot’s, but his daughters - and moreover, they didn’t do it because they were perverts, but to preserve humanity. Lot knew nothing of it: “So **they made their father drink wine that night** also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and **he did not know when she lay down or when she arose**.” ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/29 "2008-05-09T19:23:13Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] Well, sure. 😃 First, you should know that in tribal level societies the obligations of hospitality are paramount - they are tied very strongly to the notion of honor. Once you take someone in as a guest, they are sacred. The men of Sodom threaten to rape two strangers who have appeared and who have been accepted as guests by Lot. Not only are these two strangers Lot’s guests, they are angels who have come to judge the city, to destroy it if it is “bad”. Lot begs the men not to do the gang-rape, and even offers his daughters in their place - a horrible act true, but consider that (1) guests are sacred; and (2) the risk that the angels, if angered, will destroy the city - Lot and daughters included. Later, God does destroy the city (allowing Lot and his daughters to escape - Lot’s wife looks back and gets turned to salt). He escapes to a cave in an uninhabited wilderness. His daughters believe that God has destroyed humanity - except them - Noah’s flood style. So they in effect drug and rape dad, specifically to preserve the human race: Now, incest is bad and all, but at least according to this account the fault was not Lot’s, but his daughters - and moreover, they didn’t do it because they were perverts, but to preserve humanity. Lot knew nothing of it: “So **they made their father drink wine that night** also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and **he did not know when she lay down or when she arose**.” [/QUOTE] Now that’s just downright illuminating.:dubious: I’ll tell you a secret, I never read that part and I was just regurgitating what I heard from a friend of mine. Still doesn’t stop me from asking why god put Lot et al. in such situations as to be forced to do those things–the angels could have just as easily daintily flown away any time they chose, and there had to be a better way to fix things in sodom than the liberal application of fire and brimstone. How hard is it for god to appear in one of the girls’ dreams to say “don’t rape your father i wouldn’t leave humanity with such a tiny gene pool to work with?” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645/30 "2008-05-09T20:02:49Z")
[QUOTE=Mojo Pin] Now that’s just downright illuminating.:dubious: I’ll tell you a secret, I never read that part and I was just regurgitating what I heard from a friend of mine. Still doesn’t stop me from asking why god put Lot et al. in such situations as to be forced to do those things–the angels could have just as easily daintily flown away any time they chose, and there had to be a better way to fix things in sodom than the liberal application of fire and brimstone. How hard is it for god to appear in one of the girls’ dreams to say “don’t rape your father i wouldn’t leave humanity with such a tiny gene pool to work with?” [/QUOTE] Heh, good questions all. If God really exists, he has some explaining to do. 😃 In the Bible, one possible answer is found in the Book of Job, where God basically torments a good fellow to see what happens (he has a bet running with Satan that Job will “crack” and go bad). His buddies basically say “well, bad stuff happened to you, so you must deserve it”. Job compains that he was a good guy and bad shit happened to him anyway, and he notes that the bad guys often do well, and the good guys get stomped: > [@](#): > > Why do the wicked live, > reach old age, and grow mighty in power? Eventually, God himself joins in the debate, His answer isn’t very satisfactory - basically, you humans are too puny to understand God’s full purpose: > [@](#): > > 1Then the LORD(A) answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: > 2"Who is this that(B) darkens counsel by words(C) without knowledge? 3(D) Dress for action[a] like a man; > I will question you, and you make it known to me. > 4"Where were you when I(E) laid the foundation of the earth? > Tell me, if you have understanding. > 5Who determined its measurements—surely you know! > Or who stretched the line upon it? > 6On what were its bases sunk, > or who laid its cornerstone, > 7when the morning stars(F) sang together > and all(G) the sons of God(H) shouted for joy? This scares Job shitless, and he abases himself: > [@](#): > > 1Then Job answered the LORD and said: > 2"I know that you can(A) do all things, > and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. > 3(B) 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?‘Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, > things(C) too wonderful for me, which I did not know. > 4’Hear, and I will speak; > (D) I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ > 5I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, > but now my eye sees you; > 6therefore I despise myself, > and repent[a] in(E) dust and ashes." Though in the end God restores Job’s fortunes - which seems to me a cop-out, as good stuff eventually happens to good people (if only you wait). Not like real life. My favorite Bible verse on the subject is the pessimism of Ecclesiasties: > [@](#): > > Vanity\*\* of vanities, says(D) the Preacher, > (E) vanity of vanities! All is vanity. > 3(F) What(G) does man gain by all the toil > at which he toils under the sun? > 4A generation goes, and a generation comes, > but(H) the earth remains forever. > 5(I) The sun rises, and the sun goes down, > and hastens[c] to the place where it rises. > 6(J) The wind blows to the south > and goes around to the north; > around and around goes the wind, > and on its circuits the wind returns. > 7All(K) streams run to the sea, > but the sea is not full; > to the place where the streams flow, > there they flow again. > 8All things are full of weariness; > a man cannot utter it; > (L) the eye is not satisfied with seeing, > nor the ear filled with hearing. > 9(M) What has been is what will be, > and what has been done is what will be done, > and there is nothing new under the sun. > 10Is there a thing of which it is said, > “See, this is new”? > It has been(N) already > in the ages before us. > 11There is no(O) remembrance of former things,[d] > nor will there be any remembrance > of later things[e] yet to be > among those who come after. And especially: > [@](#): > > 9Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your(M) vain life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your(N) portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. 10Whatever your hand finds to do,(O) do it with your might,\*\*(P) for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. And for students ( 😃 ): > [@](#): > > Of making(AA) many books there is no end, and(AB) much study is a weariness of the flesh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-bible-specifically-outlaw-rape/448645.md?page=1)