# Does the Christian Trinity violate the Law Of Identity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200 "2014-12-14T12:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/1 "2014-12-14T12:23:51Z")
Law Of Identity: In logic, the law of identity is the first of the three classical laws of thought. It states that “each thing is the same with itself and different from another”. Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Ghost But can the Christian simply say it is one “power” with three parts??? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/2 "2014-12-14T13:29:30Z")
In classical theism, God is simple and has no parts (or, all of God’s parts are identical with all of his other parts). This means that the doctrine of the Trinity can’t (on classical theism) be a doctrine that God has three distinct parts. All of God’s properties are also supposed to be identical to all of God’s other properties, so on classical theism the doctrine of the Trinity also can’t be a doctrine that God has three distinct properties. But they (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) are definitely three different things. Just not different parts or properties of God. Three different persons, though, for sure. It’s just that all three of these people have the same substance. There’s no contradiction here, but it’s also never been clear how to model what’s going on. It’s its own thing, not like anything else. Which dovetails nicely with classical theism’s doctrine of analogy, which states that whatever properties God has are not strictly shared with anything else in the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/3 "2014-12-14T13:32:29Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > But they (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) are definitely three different things. Just not different parts or properties of God. Three different persons, though, for sure. > > There’s no contradiction here… I cant think of a more clear cut contradiction ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/4 "2014-12-14T13:43:52Z")
I’m pretty sure the Law of Identity is also violated by quantum physics. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/5 "2014-12-14T13:47:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m pretty sure the Law of Identity is also violated by quantum physics. ummm… what? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/6 "2014-12-14T14:15:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I cant think of a more clear cut contradiction What’s the contradiction you’re seeing? What’s the sentence ‘A’ such that, according to the doctrine, both A and not-A are true? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/7 "2014-12-14T14:16:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m pretty sure the Law of Identity is also violated by quantum physics. Is there a particular contradiction you have in mind, i.e. a statement of the form “A and not-A”? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/8 "2014-12-14T14:22:54Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What’s the contradiction you’re seeing? What’s the sentence ‘A’ such that, according to the doctrine, both A and not-A are true? the contradiction is when they say they are monotheists, when they define god as a single entity ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/9 "2014-12-14T14:26:38Z")
Sure the Doctrine of the Trinity violates the Law of Identity. But so what? If a transcendent creator exists, it would not be subject to what we perceive as the laws of physics and logic any more than a three-dimensional entity is constrained by 2D geometry. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/10 "2014-12-14T14:31:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Sure the Doctrine of the Trinity violates the Law of Identity. But so what? If a transcendent creator exists, it would not be subject to what we perceive as the laws of physics and logic any more than a three-dimensional entity is constrained by 2D geometry. so, in your estimation, god could be both dead and alive at the same time (to pick just one example) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/11 "2014-12-14T14:31:25Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > the contradiction is when they say they are monotheists, when they define god as a single entity A monotheist is someone who believes there is only one being who is God. Since on classical theism the three persons all share one being, the doctrine still counts as monotheistic. Someone could insist that monotheism is the doctrine that only one _person_ is God, but this would seem to be mere semantic dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/12 "2014-12-14T14:43:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so, in your estimation, god could be both dead and alive at the same time (to pick just one example) I’m an atheist. My point is that you’ll never resolve a theological dispute with logic (no matter what the Jesuits say) because theists have a get out of jail free card. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/13 "2014-12-14T14:55:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m an atheist. My point is that you’ll never resolve a theological dispute with logic (no matter what the Jesuits say) because theists have a get out of jail free card. ok, but not my point I dont think a “word puzzle” like can god make a rock so heavy he can’t lift it, i dont think that is enough to disprove god, but, i don’t think god can actually contradict himself… like he can’t say i want justice, but, i will forgive your sins if you believe in jesus. the issue is not about what god is allowed to do, it is he can’t call it jsutice if you don’t serve your own punsihment. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/14 "2014-12-14T15:25:50Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Is there a particular contradiction you have in mind, i.e. a statement of the form “A and not-A”? Can light be both a particle and a wave? Can an electron’s location be determined - is it ever, in fact, the same with itself? Actually, can subatomic particles truly be said to have distinct identities? I’m no physicist, and I certainly don’t believe in any Trinity, but it seems to me that concepts of identity are a bit more… fluid today then they were 2,500 years ago. My point is that we shouldn’t be asking whether the Trinity violates the Law of Identity; we should be asking whether the Law of Identity is even valid any more. That seems like a much more interesting discussion than yet another futile attempt to prove or disprove God. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/15 "2014-12-14T15:36:19Z")
Got 4 years to spend at the graduate seminary, OP? The argument and debate on the nature or even existence of the Trinity has been ongoing just about as long as there have been Christian theologians. OTOH… > [@Robert163](#): > > i don’t think god can actually contradict himself… like he can’t say i want justice, but, i will forgive your sins if you believe in jesus. the issue is not about what god is allowed to do, it is he can’t call it jsutice if you don’t serve your own punsihment. … but now you’re posing what \*you \*believe is a _sine qua non_ requirement that “you serve your own punishment” or else there’s no justice. That overlooks one of the most basic parts of (mainstream, classic) Christian doctrine, which is that _Justice has been served by Jesus’ sacrifice on behalf of the truly repentant believer_. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/16 "2014-12-14T15:59:16Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Got 4 years to spend at the graduate seminary, OP? The argument and debate on the nature or even existence of the Trinity has been ongoing just about as long as there have been Christian theologians. > > OTOH… … but now you’re posing what \*you \*believe is a _sine qua non_ requirement that “you serve your own punishment” or else there’s no justice. That overlooks one of the most basic parts of (mainstream, classic) Christian doctrine, which is that _Justice has been served by Jesus’ sacrifice on behalf of the truly repentant believer_. no, i’m referring to the definition of Justice, like, the actual definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/17 "2014-12-14T16:00:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Can light be both a particle and a wave? Can an electron’s location be determined - is it ever, in fact, the same with itself? Actually, can subatomic particles truly be said to have distinct identities? I’m no physicist, and I certainly don’t believe in any Trinity, but it seems to me that concepts of identity are a bit more… fluid today then they were 2,500 years ago. > > My point is that we shouldn’t be asking whether the Trinity violates the Law of Identity; we should be asking whether the Law of Identity is even valid any more. That seems like a much more interesting discussion than yet another futile attempt to prove or disprove God. i thought it was in bad form here to hijack threads?.. i really don’t care to get into a discussion of quantum mechanics vs traditional philosphy ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/18 "2014-12-14T16:13:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > i thought it was in bad form here to hijack threads?.. i really don’t care to get into a discussion of quantum mechanics vs traditional philosphy But since your argument is based on traditional philosophy, shouldn’t traditional philosophy be held up to criticism? If you claim that “A is wrong because B is right”, wouldn’t saying “B is wrong” disprove your argument? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/19 "2014-12-14T16:16:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But since your argument is based on traditional philosophy, shouldn’t traditional philosophy be held up to criticism? If you claim that “A is wrong because B is right”, wouldn’t saying “B is wrong” disprove your argument? look, i really don’t care that much, i don’t, i wanted to see if anyone (on this board) could defend the proposition. thus far, no one has. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200/20 "2014-12-14T16:29:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Can light be both a particle and a wave? Something can have both wavelike properties and particle-like properties, yes. What’s the contradiction (A & not-A) you think you see here? > [@](#): > > we should be asking whether the Law of Identity is even valid any more. It definitely is. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-christian-trinity-violate-the-law-of-identity/707200.md?page=2)