Perhaps radical, far leftist views are not widely circulated, but to say that “leftist” views are not widely circulated has not been supported, and probably can’t be supported. How many of the major Newspapers in the US had an editorial policy in favor or the Iraq invasion?
You tend to get “misunderstood” a lot, clucky. OK, I’ll accept that your “cute” remark was about the “anti-corporate media”. The fact remains that you completely evaded the points leading up to it, i.e. that arguably vast numbers of deaths in Iraq and neighboring countries were avoided through sanctions limiting Saddam’s power to kill. Just as you’ve evaded responsibility for your statements suggesting that the media hasn’t mentioned previous U.S. support for Saddam, has rarely talked about the human consequences of sanctions and “rarely” reports labor news.
Patently false and self-serving.
You’re still unable to get from point A (aspects of certain stories aren’t covered as much in the mainstream media as in avowedly left-wing media) to point B (corporate interests “suppress” these stories).
“I think” doesn’t cut it.
Kimstu: you’ll have to remind me which conservatives are “peddling conspiracy theories” about liberal bias in the media (you can select from the many debates on the subject in this forum as a starting point), as well as what “corporate media” have to do with the liberal vs. conservative axis - unless you want to fall back on the viewpoint that “corporate/profit-driven” = “right-wing”.
Jack:
Kimstu is probably talking about those in the camp of Bernard Goldberg, who wrote the book: Bias : A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News
I can certainly agree in general with your concerns as stated in your most recent post, but I don’t know, either, what might be done about them. I too would prefer to see more balanced treatment of the leftist viewpoint in the major media, for one reason because IMO most of the alternative media I follow are, if anything, far more agenda-driven than than the corporate-owned outlets they set themselves in opposition to. Frankly, anything that smacks of propaganda turns me right off.
In the end, though, I think what we are dealing with here is a national trait, not something confined to the media. I look at the general level of discourse here, the range of opinions that get aired widely, and compare it to that of, say, France, where I lived for a time, and just have to laugh.
This is a weirdly conservative, anti-intellectual culture for the most part, and not just now but traditionally has been almost completely disinterested in foreign events which do not have a direct and major social or economic impact here. This particularly applies to things like US support for dictators (which, to be honest, is more a thing of the '50-80’s period than now). My impression is that most of our citizens simply don’t care one way or another about potential US contributions to the suffering of non-Americans, as long as they feel reasonably safe, and in all likelihood will continue to ignore these issues unless and until they either have it brought home forcefully by outside events (cf 9/11) or suddenly, magically wake up one day and realize that some of our country’s political policies may be endangering our security rather than enhancing it. Unfortunately, I am pessimistic that media reform alone is sufficient to change this complacency, and without some sort of concrete proposal for such reform, I am at a loss as to what I might say further.
Uh, directed to Clucky, if that wasn’t clear.
John, what is a “leftist” view? It’s not a liberal view, which is allowed in the mainstream as left of center. A leftist view WOULD be considered radical by the mainstream, period. That it’s considered radical is precisely why it is marginalized – not included in the mainstream conscience.
This is a different discussion, I know. But, part of the leftist agenda is to address the fact that the mainstream media gives the U.S. a pass on its foreign policy.
More later. Have to go soon.
As for good, old, lovable Jack:
As for “vast numbers of deaths were avoided through sanctions.” I think I did address this by explaining that sanctions could have been more humane while ALSO limiting Saddam’s power. Didn’t have to be an either/or proposition.
Well, the media HAS mentioned previous U.S. support for Saddam. If I gave the impression that I feel they haven’t “mentioned” it, mea culpa. But, “mentioning” isn’t exactly the same as reporting on this thoroughly. The leftist view is that this is important to point out to the average American, because otherwise they might be snookered into thinking that our government actually is acting out of concern for Iraqi citizens. Add to this the policy of deadly sanctions for 12 years, up until the time that the U.S. took over Iraq.
Certainly, there was little discussion as to how the U.S. blocked (through vetoes) water purification products from going to Iraq, after the U.S. deliberately bombed Iraqi civilian infrastructure during Gulf War I.
It’s all about context. A little story there, a little story there does not add up to the full picture.
Now, do me a favor: Answer my previous questions about your former newspaper’s policies on covering businesses and labor. Was there a Labor section? Was there a Business section? I’m truly interested. Maybe you can help set me straight.
Arab terrorists tried to hijack a plane in 1994 with the intent of crashing it in Paris. I have seen this on 3 programs since 9/11, the first being FRONTLINE on PBS.
I find it curious that there has benn no discussion of what the FAA was doing for 6 1/2 years about reinforcing cockpit doors.
The bombing target of 1993 and the Modus Operandi of France 1994 equals WTC 9/11.
The writing was practially on the wall.
The books THE POWERS THAT BE and RULE BY SECRECY indicate the conspiracy theories are often just exaggerations not fantasies. Of course maybe the exaggerations are promoted by the conspirators as a smokescreen. Paranoia is such fun.
Dal Timgar
Why clucky, I’m surprised you didn’t know that I was editor of the Oppressed Peoples section of the Daily Worker.
Seriously, it’s hard to understand what you think the point is of there not being sections in American newspapers entitled “Labor”. Perhaps the loss of manufacturing jobs and declining influence of organized labor has translated into less coverage, and that may distress you, the AFL-CIO or even the Daily Worker. But it’s still patently absurd to claim that labor strife, working conditions (like the furor over W.R. Grace’s vermiculite mining and asbestos exposure) etc. don’t get covered in mainstream media, and you provide no evidence that a “corporate” nature to media is responsible for what you see as omissions.
By your logic, since the old sections designated for women in newspapers have largely been replaced by “lifestyle” sections, there’s no longer any coverage devoted to women.
I’d still love to see you connect the dots as to how “corporations” somehow suppressed news of American perfidy re Iraq, as opposed to generating more heaps of innuendo, i.e. claiming that “no anti-war voices” have been heard on TV.*
*“If there’s only official sources on TV, for example, and no anti-war voices, then how often do you hear the horrors of U.S.-supported sanctions?”
JM: Kimstu is probably talking about those in the camp of Bernard Goldberg
Actually, I don’t know that name, and I didn’t mean to conflate the “liberal media bias” and “corporate media bias” issues. I was just idly wishing that the common blather about “liberal bias” would be as carefully scrutinized and tested as the allegations of “corporate bias” are being in this thread.
Jack: You’re still unable to get from point A (aspects of certain stories aren’t covered as much in the mainstream media as in avowedly left-wing media) to point B (corporate interests “suppress” these stories). “I think” doesn’t cut it.
Well, you may not think that anecdotal evidence from other journalists “cuts it” much better than anecdotal evidence from Clucky. But for what it’s worth, you might be interested in a recent book called The Business of Journalism: Ten Leading Reporters and Editors on the Perils and Pitfalls of the Press, which devotes a lot of space to the issue of journalistic self-censorship. From the linked review:
Let’s get this really straight. Conspiracy theories are always indicators of system corruptability, regardless of whether the corruption has been used or is actively being used.
Even without evidence that these corruptabilities are being used, one can make very strong accusations of intent after a certain point.
When the root corruption that has spawned a particular conspiracy theory has been found by pulling apart the system peice by peice, lack of reporting becomes suspicous.
When the system has been analyzed by millions of hours of labor, to the point where the corruptability has been solved to the point that implimenting the solution actually saves money with regards to the stated purpose for using the system in the first place, then the case for not reporting becomes irrational. UNLESS the detected corruptability is being used to generate wealth in a manner of misdirection, that far exceeds the stated purpose for having the system.
When an investigation to a conspiracy theory has arrived this far, to the point of identifying the problem and having a brilliant and freely, publicly cultivated solution just sitting on the shelf, and no news coverage has occurred on the topic, this is an admission of guilt.
Okaaay. I theorize that t_leave is a hinking AI, out to confuse us. If a million dopers take an hour to read this thread, it becomes an admission of guilt that he is, indeed, a hinking AI.
Therefore, I should wait for the views to spike, and then, as there is no ad banner, so no weath generated, report the post.
I think that’s what it means. I’m not sure.
Kimstu: So what are the specific examples of spiked stories, with memos or other hard evidence of tampering by corporate higher-ups? Is Disney hiring hordes of pedophiles to work at its parks and ordering the media not to report it? Sounds like BizarroWorld to me.
It would also be interesting if the ready skepticism that the Left brings to accusations of liberal media bias were applied to the claims of “corporate media” bias - which are generally vaguer, since they tend not to involve actual news reports, but stories which are purportedly not covered.
Don’t be so sure. We can find out a lot about the U.S. support for dictators during that time period mostly due to declassified U.S. documents. But, today’s records are usually classified, if they have anything to do with U.S. relations with another nation.
What’s interesting is that you won’t find many mainstream stories, even today, that critically look at the issue of our nation’s questionable past in supporting blood-thirsty dictators in the name of national interests. When was the last time you saw a mainstream article or column looking at whether the nation was correct in propping up murderous dictators in order to brutally beat down any type of nationalistic movement.
Some cites on this type of past activity:
Our support of genocide in Guatemala
From the article:
An article written in 1998 about CIA abuses in Guatemala
A snippet:
A site dedicated to trying to close the U.S. School of Americas, which is mentioned in the snippet from the first article above. This is the military training grounds for brutal soldiers who kill innocent people in South America for the purpose of keeping those nations from undergoing a nationalistic, grassroots revolution. Those types of revolutions aren’t good for U.S. business.
Btw, Manuel Noriega was a graduate. Like Saddam, he was a good friend of ours, until he stopped taking orders.
From the site:
From that same site, SOA grads in the news.
The latest grad in the news:
Well, I think if there was the same media blitz about our nation’s tendency to support brutal dictators in the Third World as there was in demonizing Saddam Hussein, things would be different.
I really think Americans just aren’t informed of what’s really going on. I find most people here compassionate, if they understand that an atrocity is taking place.
Uh, Clucky, thanks for posting all that additonal text, but I am already aware of the history of US involvement in Guatemala, not just from reading but from having worked there in the 1980s. I really am though with this topic for now, but I just want to point out one thing:
Maybe that’s because they are old news. You apparently are a journalist, working for a US-based daily. Why on earth should this particular subject, involving foreign events years in the past, be given priority over any more current news? I mean, if you were arguing that more historical scholars should be publishing on this subject I could see it. But really, I’m failing to see your point, as phrased.
OK, so it never got the treatment its deserved. It’s a bit too too late now, isn’t it? And if you firmly believe the US government is currently propping up odious dictators in some location or other, well, you’re the reporter; go get the story and bring it back to us.
Sorry, but you are starting to sound more and more like one of our now-departed posters who was interested only in wallowing in what he saw as endless American perfidy.
My point was simply that media report from a corporate mindset. That simple. If you report from a corporate mindset, then you are part of a system that does not value labor unions as much as you would otherwise. I thought Kimstu provided some interesting info about this. I didn’t have time to go looking.
At any rate, I’ve tried to focus more on U.S. foreign policy. Perhaps I’ll get back to labor issues later. Please read my previous response to El_Kabong. That you reject on its face the idea that the “anti-war” side didn’t have a voice in the media during the war tells me that you aren’t likely to accept any premise in this argument, no matter the evidence. You’re pretty good at avoiding any good point I might have in favor of chipping away at some of my admittedly sweeping statements, such as:
“If there’s only official sources on TV, for example, and no anti-war voices, then how often do you hear the horrors of U.S.-supported sanctions?”
Tell me, Jack, how WAS a majority of U.S. residents convinced that war against Iraq was a necessary matter, and that Iraqi liberation was one reason for it?
Now, connecting the dots from reporting to “corporate” America. That’s difficult to explain to someone who rejects it flatly on its face. Here’s more of that MediaLens article I quoted from in the OP, followed by some specific instances of how reporters run into roadblocks:
http://www.narconews.com/webbletter.html]This site explains Gary Webb’s dilemma. From the site:
More on this topic from PBS.Webb answers questions in 1996 in a forum.
Another story about the reaction to Webb’s piece. From the article:
Notice that I bolded the parts of that last article that give more examples of how the corporate media can simply take the government line. As I said before, the media take their cue from the military/government.
Why is the corporate media servile to the government on certain matters that the government claim are of “national interest?” Corporations want the status quo. They want to grow, they want what they feel is best for the U.S. corporate world, which includes “globalization.” Have to grow the market in other nations, and that means keeping the Third World from nationalizing.
There’s no meetings on this subject. No grand conspiracy plan. Just an understanding that “government interests” are “national interests” are “corporate interests.” This goes back a long way in the history of this nation. The Phillipines was an imperial conquest. The war with Spain was much the same. The United Fruit Company wanted the government to make Guatemala free for business, whether genocide was necessary or not.
As Gary Webb’s story illustrates, once a reporter blows the wrong cover, you’re on your own. You think other national reporters didn’t learn from Webb’s experience? Learn something about the CIA that will be controversial, you better keep your mouth shut. Hell, much of the criticism of the Bushies’ approach to Iraq came FROM the CIA. I read Newsweek, and they would willingly put in comments from CIA sources about how attacking Iraq will not help their jobs. That’s all internal there. That’s allowed.
Certain voices and viewpoints are attacked, vigorously, to keep the status quo and make the world free for U.S. corporate globalization.
Well, I WAS a reporter. I’m worse now. I’m in P.R. But, that’s beside the point. I am very much interested in the media and how it presents information to the masses.
I’m not wallowing, rather trying to wade through the facts to get to the truth. What you call “old news” usually is part of an article’s “background.” To fully develop a story, reporters have to use a certain amount of background to bring the readers up to speed on the subject. I’m sure you know this, but it might not have crossed your mind when you responded. Some things don’t have to be part of the background, because they’re implied. Such as the common implication that the U.S. is always trying to do what’s best to advance freedom and democracy.
Take Iran for example. When there’s articles about the U.S. and its relationship with that nation, where’s the obligatory background paragraph pointing out that the CIA helped overthrow a democratic regime 50 years ago, sending that nation into turmoil? From this book review of “All the Shah’s Men”:
In essence, our nation’s involvement indirectly led to the type of government they have there now. Add to that the fact that our nation helped propped up Saddam until he no longer proved to be a friend to our government.
I think if these types of things became part of the collective consciousness, we wouldn’t have the Iraq mess right now. We wouldn’t so easily trust a politician’s promise to “liberate” other nation’s citizens.
That’s my thrust on this. How to fix it? Heck, I’m still trying to decipher how it all happened. I am advancing ideas and assertions, knowing full well that they will be attacked, because I want to think more about this, and want others to think a little more about this situation.
Anyway, I understand if you want to drop the subject. Appreciate the back-and-forth. I’ve stayed away from this place in the past because it seems to be mean-spirited in ways. I appreciate people who can have a civil conversation. Only recently have I had this whole “leftist conversion,” and have returned with some trepidation, knowing that I’m out past the left field foul pole in the political/economic landscape. Things here seem to be presented as liberal v. conservative, with no leftist input.
Anyway, I’m gonna try to find some more sources about recent U.S. support of dictators. I might do that and post a new thread. I’ve seen the evidence, just have to find it again. Btw, did you find any of the School of Americas stuff interesting? It’s still up and running and training brutal killers.
You see, this is what makes arguing with you hopeless.
One can recognize, without necessarily agreeing with the absolute veracity of all the revelations you’ve posted, that various organizations (governmental and private), companies and powerful individuals have historically been interested in how they’re portrayed in the press and have sometimes lavished favors or pressure on news organizations and/or reporters to see that favorable things about them were reported or embarassing stuff minimized. What on earth this has uniquely to do with corporations, the corporate media, “corporate globalization” or whatever the corporate bogeyman is called by elements of the Left, God only knows.
Who do you do P.R. for? Surely not a corporation.
Oh, It’s not that I wish to drop it, but I’m pretty much talked out on it at this point, plus my time is somewhat limited here, despite appearances to the contrary. Carry on, of course.
Well, at least you see that that the media will bend to the will of the organizations they are supposed to be covering. The reason it happens is certainly debatable, and that’s one of the things I wanted to explore. I feel that I’ve failed in really drawing a good conversation about this particular aspect. Perhaps I should have just said mainstream media, since it’s just about the same thing, especially in the U.S.
I do P.R. for a government entity. I could just as well do it for a corporation. I could just as well get a job out of the field tomorrow. My opinions would remain unaffected. I’m not married to them, either, but this is how I think, at this particular juncture in my life, from what I’ve seen and heard and have been able to ascertain.