# Does the DEA/NSA collaboration prove that mass conspiracy theories are possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786 "2013-08-21T08:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/1 "2013-08-21T08:18:17Z")
One of the common criticisms of conspiracy theories is that it would require hundreds of people spread over many different interest groups to all simultaneously uphold overly elaborate lies and to maintain perfect secrecy over dozens of years. Such a scenario is often deemed so infeasible that this counts as a strong strike against conspiracy theories that involve large government agencies. However, recent revelations from Edward Snowden’s files have suggested that [the NSA has been passing along information from classified sources to help the DEA make drug arrests](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805) and that the DEA was specifically instructed to use “parallel construction” to hide the source of the information by recreating it from other sources. When I first read about it, I immediately thought that it didn’t pass the smell test. It involved way too many people concocting a way over elaborate scheme that has gone thus far undetected for way too long. If even a single person had figured it out, it would have caused a huge amount of controversy for way too little apparent reward. It may be that the alleged claims turn out to be false after all but if it isn’t, does it serve as an existence proof that such wide-ranging conspiracies are in fact possible? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/2 "2013-08-21T09:38:19Z")
If anything, it proves that mass conspiracy theories are impossible, because all it takes is one disgruntled hipster to spill the beans to a newspaper and then take off for Russia with a backpack full of money. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/3 "2013-08-21T10:23:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If anything, it proves that mass conspiracy theories are impossible, because all it takes is one disgruntled hipster to spill the beans to a newspaper and then take off for Russia with a backpack full of money. Jesus Christ, **Smapti** , you’re acting like Snowden told you there is no Santa Claus. Were you really _that_ enamoured with your incorrect belief that the head of the NSA wasn’t a federal criminal? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/4 "2013-08-21T10:34:03Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > One of the common criticisms of conspiracy theories is that it would require hundreds of people spread over many different interest groups to all simultaneously uphold overly elaborate lies and to maintain perfect secrecy over dozens of years. Such a scenario is often deemed so infeasible that this counts as a strong strike against conspiracy theories that involve large government agencies. Well, imagine a world where Edward Snowden didn’t have the balls he did. Or a world where almost everyone - thousands of people - are so intidated by the consequences of revealing the conspiracy (of Gov led reprisal) they don’t say anything. Wait, that is our world. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/5 "2013-08-21T11:11:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Jesus Christ, **Smapti** , you’re acting like Snowden told you there is no Santa Claus. Were you really _that_ enamoured with your incorrect belief that the head of the NSA wasn’t a federal criminal? So why hasn’t he been arrested, then? > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Or a world where almost everyone - thousands of people - are so intidated by the consequences of revealing the conspiracy (of Gov led reprisal) they don’t say anything. Wait, that is our world. If that was our world, this thread wouldn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/6 "2013-08-21T11:15:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So why hasn’t he been arrested, then? > > If that was our world, this thread wouldn’t exist. Quite. He didn’t take off to Russia. He was blockaded there and forced to seek Asylum with that ‘unfriendly’ power. A sure sign to me that the information he holds is nothing to do with national security. Plus he doesn’t have a sackful of money. Snowden is a patriot and a hero. It is those willing to trade liberty for the vague promise of security from nebulous ‘threats’ that are the traitors to everything the USA is meant to stand for. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/7 "2013-08-21T11:20:19Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Snowden is a patriot and a hero. No, Snowden is a self-aggrandizing traitor who risked the lives of countless Americans for the sake of personal fame, and bungled his big heroic moment so much that he couldn’t even find a country to hide in that doesn’t do all the same things and more that he’s supposedly mad at America for doing. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/8 "2013-08-21T11:29:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, Snowden is a self-aggrandizing traitor who risked the lives of countless Americans for the sake of personal fame, and bungled his big heroic moment so much that he couldn’t even find a country to hide in that doesn’t do all the same things and more that he’s supposedly mad at America for doing. ‘Risked the lives of countless Americans’ how? Perhaps a cite or two from responsible, informed, impartial sources would help me out here. The traitors in this story are the likes of Culter. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/9 "2013-08-21T12:08:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So why hasn’t he been arrested, then? > > If that was our world, this thread wouldn’t exist. Who are you trying to impress with these random, non sequitur responses? Fwiw, you sound very, very young. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/10 "2013-08-21T12:25:03Z")
Wide-ranging illegal activities by governmental agencies are certainly possible. The NSA’s behavior, regardless of legality, was not uncovered by hordes of amateurs on the Internet flogging conspiracy theories, but by a solitary whistle-blower. Therefore, I do not find that conspiracy theory-promoters have gained any credibility via NSA revelations. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/11 "2013-08-21T12:43:16Z")
Just to restate the question: > [@Shalmanese](#): > > does it serve as an existence proof that such wide-ranging conspiracies are in fact possible? From the original conception through the legal experts, the building architects and experts determing the hardware, to the software creators, to the project managers, recruiters and current staff … who said anything? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/12 "2013-08-21T12:57:19Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > your incorrect belief that the head of the NSA wasn’t a federal criminal? No laws seem to have been broken. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/13 "2013-08-21T13:11:05Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > ‘Risked the lives of countless Americans’ how? How many terrorists now know better ways to elude surveillance thanks to Snowden’s telling them the ways the government tracks them? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/14 "2013-08-21T13:24:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How many terrorists now know better ways to elude surveillance thanks to Snowden’s telling them the ways the government tracks them? I don’t know. You tell me. You cite me the terrorist plots that were thwarted by this? Maybe you can explain why the NSA Magic Rock failed to stop the recent wave of Ramadan killings (what was it 7k deaths) in the territory of our ally, Iraq? Maybe you can explain why the Magic Rock failed to find Bin Laden? Quite frankly - I don’t care. The price being asked for some undefined ‘safety’ from some ‘undefined’ threat is too expensive for me and it is certainly a price that demands democratic debate and effective democratic oversight. None of which we have. It is only these revalations that have bought the issue into play. I don’t beleive if we pulled the plug on the whole shebang it would make any difference to ‘national security’ anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/15 "2013-08-21T13:27:40Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I don’t know. You tell me. You cite me the terrorist plots that were thwarted by this? > > Maybe you can explain why the NSA Magic Rock failed to stop the recent wave of Ramadan killings (what was it 7k deaths) in the territory of our ally, Iraq? > > Maybe you can explain why the Magic Rock failed to find Bin Laden? I can’t, because those things are classified and with good reason. Why don’t you ask Snowden? > [@](#): > > Quite frankly - I don’t care. The price being asked for some undefined ‘safety’ from some ‘undefined’ threat is too expensive for me and it is certainly a price that demands democratic debate and effective democratic oversight. > > None of which we have. It is only these revalations that have bought the issue into play. I’m sure you understand why having a vote on whether or not things should be classified is not a viable option. I ask you; is your life any different now than it was before this leak? Have any government officials showed up at your door demanding that you explain your web browsing habits? What “price” do you think you’re being asked to pay? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/16 "2013-08-21T13:55:09Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > No laws seem to have been broken. He lied to Congress about what his organisation had been doing. Doing so is a federal crime. > [@Smapti](#): > > How many terrorists now know better ways to elude surveillance thanks to Snowden’s telling them the ways the government tracks them? Zero. The terrorists _already_ knew the US government was spying on them. The big secret wasn’t about how the NSA was spying on the terrorists, but how they were spying on everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/17 "2013-08-21T13:56:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So why hasn’t he been arrested, then? > [@Smapti](#): > > No, Snowden is a self-aggrandizing traitor Next time you state that someone who has not been arrested is, _ipso facto_, not a criminal and then state that someone who has not been arrested is, in fact, a criminal, don’t forget to [put the “United Way” update between the two statements](http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-10-02/). ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/18 "2013-08-21T13:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Have any government officials showed up at your door demanding that you explain your web browsing habits? No need for them to show up, it’s all done remotely. Are your web browsing habits being recorded for use against you? You don’t know. You have no way to know. Doesn’t that bother you? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/19 "2013-08-21T13:59:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How many terrorists now know better ways to elude surveillance thanks to Snowden’s telling them the ways the government tracks them? Terrorists don’t need better ways to elude surveillance, because the government isn’t really paying attention to them (even when [somebody taps it on the shoulder and says “hey, dude, watch out for this guy”](http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/24/russia-asked-u-s-twice-to-investigate-tamerlan-tsarnaev-official-says/)). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/20 "2013-08-21T14:22:15Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > No need for them to show up, it’s all done remotely. > Are your web browsing habits being recorded for use against you? > You don’t know. You have no way to know. Doesn’t that bother you? What are you doing on the web that you’re concerned the government is going to use against you? > [@Grumman](#): > > He lied to Congress about what his organisation had been doing. Doing so is a federal crime. Then Congress is free to press contempt charges against him. I’ll wait. > [@](#): > > Zero. The terrorists _already_ knew the US government was spying on them. The big secret wasn’t about how the NSA was spying on the terrorists, but how they were spying on everyone else. 1. Did they know _how_ they were being spied on? They do now, thanks to Snowden telling them exactly how the program works, and Lavabit telling them the best way to elude federal surveillance. 2. They aren’t “spying on everyone else”. You make it sound like there’s some guy in a little room somewhere reading everyone’s emails all day, when the reality of it is that none of that information can be touched without a warrant. I’d be sorely disappointed if the government _weren’t_ able to read the emails of criminal suspects. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786.md?page=2)