# Does the DEA/NSA collaboration prove that mass conspiracy theories are possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786 "2013-08-21T08:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/41 "2013-08-21T20:38:08Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] Ok. So your position is that the NSA spying program was kept a secret because they believed it was wrong? [/QUOTE] Yes, wrong and unpopular. Also, they didn’t want to take the small chance that an ethical judge would rule against their “spy on the entire internet” program. Sure, most judges will toe the government line, but there is often a pesky court with morals to get in the way. Hence, the bought and paid for secret rubber stamp court to point to when they’re inevitably found out. > [@Smapti](#): > > What’s wrong about wanting to stop terrorists? Nothing. It’s an admirable goal, and one that I hope is successful. What’s so great about treating _everyone on earth_ like they’re terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/42 "2013-08-21T20:58:15Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Also, they didn’t want to take the small chance that an ethical judge would rule against their “spy on the entire internet” program. Sure, most judges will toe the government line, but there is often a pesky court with morals to get in the way. > > Hence, the bought and paid for secret rubber stamp court to point to when they’re inevitably found out. 1. The program does not constitute “spying on the entire internet”. 2. Cite that the court is “bought and paid for”? > [@](#): > > What’s so great about treating _everyone on earth_ like they’re terrorists? Cite that anyone is doing such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/43 "2013-08-21T21:25:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 1. The program does not constitute “spying on the entire internet”. [75% of American internet traffic](http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887324108204579022874091732470-lMyQjAxMTAzMDIwMDEyNDAyWj.html). Traffic, not people. So my guess is ~99% of Americans have been spied on by the NSA using this technology. And Americans are the only ones the NSA _even pretends to care about_! They are not ashamed of spying on every last foreigner, including foreign governments, in the least, and they’ve said as much. And if the number of victims is less than 100% of the population, do you think that is due to NSA restraining their operations out of conscience, or incompetence? How do you realistically define “spying on the entire internet” such that the NSA is _not_ doing that? > [@](#): > > 1. Cite that the court is “bought and paid for”? They are paid by the government. The are all appointed by one man. They work for the NSA. They hear no opposing arguments (meaning the people who pay them and tell them what to do are the ones asking for their permission to spy on people). And they allow all the spying that is requested. They might as well not be there. What function does this court serve besides lending a veneer of formality to an evil, despicable organization? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/44 "2013-08-21T22:09:52Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > What’s so great about treating _everyone on earth_ like they’re terrorists? > [@Smapti](#): > > Cite that anyone is doing such a thing? Your own post (attempting to change the subject from “mass fishing-expedition snooping” to “stopping terrorists”) is your cite. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/45 "2013-08-21T22:21:21Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Irrelevant. “Parallel construction” is a method of tampering with existing evidence to pass off inadmissible evidence as admissible, not an independent discovery of new admissible evidence. > [@Smapti](#): > > No, it’s an act of _constructing_ a _parallel_ chain of evidence that can be used in court. Nope. Actually, [it works like this](http://www.international.to/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9364:spying-scandal-engulfs-other-us-agencies): > [@](#): > > As a routine practice, the SOD secretly provides the information to local authorities across the U.S., allowing them to start investigations against U.S. citizens under false pretenses, in a practice known as “parallel construction". > > For example, under parallel construction, local law enforcement will be instructed to find a reason to stop a particular vehicle - for example, through a routine traffic stop - and then once the drugs are found, the government will falsely state the drugs were found in the traffic stop… Evidence tampering _and_ perjury. Lovely. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/46 "2013-08-21T23:03:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If anything, it proves that mass conspiracy theories are impossible, because all it takes is one disgruntled hipster to spill the beans to a newspaper and then take off for Russia with a backpack full of money. Add in a competing despotic national leader, a story-hungry journalist, the Ecuadoran embassy, and a stripper ex-girlfriend and you’ve got yourself a hell of a game of _Fiasco_. This is almost as good of a show as John McAfee, and has also suitably diverted attention from the actual financial and political problems of the United States that the biggest possible conspiracy is that someone deliberately fanned the story into a bonfire. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/47 "2013-08-21T23:11:41Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Quite. He didn’t take off to Russia. He was blockaded there and forced to seek Asylum with that ‘unfriendly’ power. A sure sign to me that the information he holds is nothing to do with national security. > > Plus he doesn’t have a sackful of money. > > Snowden is a patriot and a hero. It is those willing to trade liberty for the vague promise of security from nebulous ‘threats’ that are the traitors to everything the USA is meant to stand for. Patriot and hero my fat ass. And he is an idiot. Who the freaking hell scarpers and _doesn’t_ run to a country with[NO](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_countries_have_no_extradition_treaties_with_the_United_States) extradition? If you decide you are going to geek out, plan ahead. He has no planning skills, obviously. If I was going to become a traitor, I would have exit plans including actually knowing which countries have no extradition treaties with the US, and the fastest ways to get there. [Well, I also probably wouldn’t release the data until I was already headed to one of those countries.] ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/48 "2013-08-22T01:15:58Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > And he is an idiot. Who the freaking hell scarpers and _doesn’t_ run to a country with[NO](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_countries_have_no_extradition_treaties_with_the_United_States) extradition? If you decide you are going to geek out, plan ahead. He has no planning skills, obviously. If I was going to become a traitor, I would have exit plans including actually knowing which countries have no extradition treaties with the US, and the fastest ways to get there. [Well, I also probably wouldn’t release the data until I was already headed to one of those countries.] Have you never seena Coen Brothers movie? These are not smart people; these are people with “powerful ambition and poor impulse control.” CIA Superior: What did we learn, Palmer? CIA Officer: I don’t know, sir. CIA Superior: I don’t fuckin’ know either. I guess we learned not to do it again. CIA Officer: Yes, sir. CIA Superior: I’m fucked if I know what we did. CIA Officer: Yes, sir, it’s, uh, hard to say CIA Superior: Jesus Fucking Christ. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/49 "2013-08-22T13:03:14Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > So your theory is that the government sought to keep the surveillance programs secret because they are illegal, and not as a way to make them more effective. Ok. It seems like the first step in your theory is to show they are illegal. Go ahead. Since this thread seems hopelessly hijacked, I don’t mind adding this: > **[Secret Court Rebuked N.S.A. on Surveillance (Published 2013)](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/2011-ruling-found-an-nsa-program-unconstitutional.html?ref=us)** > > A 2011 ruling held that the N.S.A. had violated the Constitution for several years by gathering tens of thousands of domestic communications unrelated to terrorism. Looks like they kept it secret because it was unconstitutional. Does this revelation change anyone’s mind about the NSA and Snowden? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/50 "2013-08-22T13:05:19Z")
I suggest you read the article again and consider the relevant timeline. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/51 "2013-08-22T13:26:35Z")
That was a little cryptic, and I blame posting from my phone. The article says that a judge ruled (correctly in my view) that portions of the program that involved purely domestic spying were found unconstitutional in 2011 and fixed to the court’s satisfaction. The article also suggests that FISA is a toothless check, which I also agree with. But it does not establish that any part of the program revealed by Snowden was illegal, does it? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/52 "2013-08-22T14:08:45Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I suggest you read the article again and consider the relevant timeline. Do you mean this part? > [@](#): > > The document also showed that the government recently changed the rules to allow N.S.A. and C.I.A. analysts to search its databases of recorded calls and e-mails using search terms designed to find information involving American citizens, not foreigners — an issue that has long concerned Senator Wyden and that was mentioned in a document leaked by Mr. Snowden and published by The Guardian. ETA: Sorry, I posted this before I saw your additional post. I think that the court’s finding that the NSA program was unconstitutional implies that it was illegal. They have made adjustments, but we don’t know, and are not allowed to know, if the court has made further findings. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/53 "2013-08-22T14:16:36Z")
Just to clear up my own post: The problem here is the lack of oversight, right? If you and I agree that FISA is toothless, then they are not effectively able to oversee the project. Only select members of congress are allowed to oversee it, and some of those, such as Ron Wyden, are still frustrated. He doesn’t have the ability to effectively oversee the program either, since he’s not allowed to say anything about it in a public forum. So, I don’t know how we could ever know whether illegal things were going on – parts of the program were found unconstitutional in 2011 and no one paid a price for that. I suspect that, once the current round of FOIA request are addressed a few years from now, we’ll find that there were further issues in the NSA program, but I cannot answer your question about current illegal activities right now, since I don’t know about them. Even if I did, I couldn’t answer you. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/54 "2013-08-22T14:54:02Z")
If the position is that parts of the program we don’t know about might be illegal, but we wouldn’t know, then I have to agree. That’s true almost axiomatically. If the position is that the parts of the program as it currently exists that we know about are illegal, I think that’s far from clear. I agree that reform is needed, and that overbroad surveillance (even when legal) is just bad policy. I just think it’s hyperbolic and wrong to claim that the NSA kept the program secret because they thought it was wrong or illegal. I think they pretty obviously had other motivations, and also good reasons for thinking it to be legal. You also note that no one “paid a price” when parts of the program were found unconstitutional. But without knowing more, there’s no reason to think they should have paid any price. For example, if a part of the program was found unconstitutional on an issue that had never before been adjudicated by controlling law (such as whether it is permissible to read the content of a US-originating SMS message sent to a foreign cell phone number that may or may not be inside the US), then there’s no reason anyone should have paid a price, the program just needed to change. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/55 "2013-08-22T15:15:16Z")
Here’s the 2011 [opinion](http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/fisa-court-documents-on-illegal-nsa-e-mail-collection-program/409/). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/56 "2013-08-22T15:39:38Z")
My opinion remains unchanged. The program is legal and Snowden is a traitor who betrayed his country because he wanted to be famous and live like a king in the Third World without having to work for it. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/57 "2013-08-22T17:04:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > My opinion remains unchanged. The program is legal and Snowden is a traitor who betrayed his country because he wanted to be famous and live like a king in the Third World without having to work for it. Hilarious! I bet you’d say the same about [Hugh Thompson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.)? Outing murderers and criminals? Disobeying orders? The nerve of some people! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/58 "2013-08-22T17:12:18Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I bet you’d say the same about [Hugh Thompson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.)? Yes, I probably would. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/59 "2013-08-22T17:26:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > My opinion remains unchanged. Er, see the link in the previous post. You get to have your own opinion, but not your own facts. Anyhoo, as [I noted on the other thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16595764&postcount=34), technological advances may render the issue moot by making continued government abuses of this sort impossible. ---
**Author:** ![georgewk10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@georgewk10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/georgewk10)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786/60 "2013-09-01T15:13:00Z")
Well, If you have a “system” that suppresses discussion and investigation. Conspiracies can be created by the Government. Have you ever brought up 9/11/01 on Straight Dope? Everytime I do the “discussion” is CLOSED. Now, what is going on. Someone afraid of the “facts” being examined? Smells like a cover-up? Right here. check this out. lets see if this reference is censored? [http://www.truthweather.com/images/pentagon/](http://www.truthweather.com/images/pentagon/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-dea-nsa-collaboration-prove-that-mass-conspiracy-theories-are-possible/666786.md?page=4)