# Does the display of American flags have some "hidden meaning" these days? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 17, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270 "2023-09-17T17:52:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/261 "2023-09-27T05:39:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No symbol in of itself is hateful or racist […] So seeing someone fly an American flag does not mean anything about him being racist or perhaps even a civil rights worker. Nor is it in any way “diseased” or “sick” to be realistically conscious of the possibility that he might be racist, and might be intending his flag display to convey a racist message. That’s been the whole (unremarkable) point that this thread’s trying to make. If you are finally willing to accept its common-sense validity, then hallelujah and congrats. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/262 "2023-09-27T05:40:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, I don’t think anybody here is claiming that it is Well, a number have claimed that the Thin Blue line flag, as often flown by a family who has lost a member in the line of duty- is unambiguously racist. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Only DrDeth is continuing to stubbornly insist that recognizing the existence of such ambiguity is letting the racists win and so we all have to pretend it doesn’t exist, or something. Nonsense, I haven’t said anything of the sort. What I have said, over and over, is that you need _context._ without context, you can tell very little and you are often jumping to unjustified conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/263 "2023-09-27T05:49:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, a number have claimed that the Thin Blue line flag, as often flown by a family who has lost a member in the line of duty- is unambiguously racist. If you now want to switch the discussion back to the issue of TBL flag symbolism, feel free to do that. > [@DrDeth](#): > > What I have said, over and over, is that you need _context._ What you have also said over and over is that in situations without enough context to unambiguously decide the question of intent, even allowing for the possibility that the symbolic intent might be malign should be considered “diseased” and “sick” and “letting the asshole win” etc. etc. etc. Which, as I have said over and over, is a naive and unrealistic denial of the real-world ambiguity of symbol use. If the reality of that ambiguity has now sunk in a bit, then good. You can argue about TBL flag symbolism with somebody else if you like, I think I’ve worked hard enough. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/264 "2023-09-27T06:05:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But you prove my point- simply flying an American flag does not indicate a person is a white supremacist or even a MAGA. Which is an argument advanced by literally no one in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/265 "2023-09-27T06:14:59Z")
It was clearly implied . . . or, was it inferred? Some folks have a serious problem telling those two apart. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/266 "2023-09-27T06:39:31Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > It was clearly implied . . . or, was it inferred? I don’t see any such implication. What’s been outright stated is that someone who flies the flag **might be assumed** to be MAGA. And that is simply a result of so many MAGA people flying the flag out of a faux patriotism. They are currently coopting the symbol. We can try to prevent that/take it back. But you can’t do that by denying it’s happening. > [@](#): > > Some folks have a serious problem telling those two apart. ⁢ I’ve heard that claim, but I’ve never encountered anyone who actually mixes up the terms. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/267 "2023-09-27T09:04:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t see any such implication. The whoosh was to be inferred 😃 > [@BigT](#): > > I’ve never encountered anyone who actually mixes up the terms. **@crowmanyclouds** wasn’t talking about the terminology used. They were talking about mixing up the actual actions of inference and implication. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/268 "2023-09-27T12:14:16Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’ve heard that claim, but I’ve never encountered anyone who actually mixes up the terms. [hijack]I have heard “s/he inferred” for “s/he implied” many, many times in the wild, so as to be unremarkable when I hear it. Strangely, I don’t think I’ve heard it mixed up in the other direction.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/269 "2023-09-27T12:47:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Flying over a house on Memorial day or used to cover a veterans coffin- it is not and anyone who think so has a diseased sick mind. Seriously? Anyone who disagrees with you has a “diseased, sick mind”? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/270 "2023-09-27T15:01:16Z")
Thanks, @Kimstu. I was too groggy last night to phrase anything anywhere near that well. > [@suranyi](#): > > But isn’t that the opposite of what the OP is asking? The title is: “Does the display of American flags have some “hidden meaning” these days?” In other words, “Is the American flag unambiguously racist?” (At least, that is my understanding of the meaning of the title.) > > By your own logic, the answer is no, it is not unambiguously racist That doesn’t make the answer “no”. It makes the answer “it does to some people; both to some people who are displaying the flags, and to some people who see the displays. Context is necessary.” ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/271 "2023-09-27T15:47:33Z")
I don’t understand this. If it has different meanings to different people, which I certainly agree with you about, then how can it have an an unambiguous meaning of any kind? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/272 "2023-09-27T16:03:49Z")
Moderating: > [@DrDeth](#): > > Flying over a house on Memorial day or used to cover a veterans coffin- it is not and anyone who think so has a diseased sick mind. I don’t believe anyone has said this in the thread. There is no need to employ such loaded language in your responses. It serves only to inflame passions and make the discussion contentious. * * * In a bit of irony, this thread has generated a lot of flags. Most everyone who has an opinion on the subject has expressed it forcefully and repeatedly. If you have, then it’s time to let your posts stand and move along. Continuing to repeat points again and again is not useful and serves only to piss off others. Sometimes we need to agree to disagree on things. I’m leaving the thread open for posters who haven’t participated in the discussion to let their views be known if they wish. If the narrow debate continues among those who have already said their piece, I’ll just close it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/273 "2023-09-27T19:18:04Z")
It can certainly have a “hidden meaning” for some people, which is what the OP actually asked. (I hope this explanation, in response to a direct question, doesn’t violate the mod note. I’ll otherwise stop answering.) ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/274 "2023-10-08T16:35:32Z")
When my wife and I, hard-core liberals, lived in solid blue Maryland, we flew the American flag without any concern that we would be considered conservative, but that was in the innocent days of the Obama administration. In 2013, we moved to purple Las Vegas, and continued flying the flag until November 9, 2016, when we took it down. (I briefly considered flying it upside-down, but decided against it.) In 2020 we were in purple Marietta, Georgia, in Newt Gingrich’s former district which we had helped flip to a Democrat in 2018. Before the 2020 election, we didn’t fly the flag, but we did put out an “In this house we believe…” sign, to counter the Trump flags of the people two doors down. After the election we put the US flag back up, and kept the sign out as well. Now we’re in solid blue Massachusetts, and we fly the US flag with no other sign that we’re liberals, and no concern that anyone will think we are Trumpists. Several of our neighbors also have US flags, and although I have never talked politics with them, it’s possible some are Trumpists, but I would be surprised (and disappointed). But it wouldn’t change our display of the flag. I refuse to allow the US flag to be co-opted as a symbol of hatred. However, there are a few thin blue line flags in the neighborhood, and I’m sorry, even though I don’t know these people, in the absence of any sign to the contrary, I assume they’re racists. That flag is too tainted, IMHO. But here’s a case that had me confused until just a few minutes ago, while I was preparing this post. There’s a house with a big flagpole that has displayed a number of flags. Sometimes the standard US flag. I think I’ve seen a 48-star US flag. Sometimes the “Betsy Ross” flag (blue field with thirteen stars in a circle), and then sometimes this one: [![](https://etc.usf.edu/clipart/72500/72510/72510_13_us_c_lg.gif) ](https://etc.usf.edu/clipart/72500/72510/72510_13_us_c_lg.gif) Thirteen stars in a staggered pattern, similar to the modern arrangement. Then the other day I decided to take a picture of what I assumed was the flag above. [![Google Photos](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ADCreHdCS6v1kAa_jjI-0j0mN5SnoqRGuN8LeRKJJR3QumpOE66wCV1sfffVpgbeO7Rrr6xRUtZGmhyXcJiMLuAOON2g_eIq_OnZCuBfhwlCo8Qhb81bCHfG=w600-h315-p-k "New item by James Hyder") ](https://photos.app.goo.gl/2shPAKrh9gH81C1f9) And I realized it has fifteen stars, not thirteen, as I assumed! Searching on “13 star US flag” I found this article about an exhibit a few years ago of 13-star US flags. > **[The 13-Star American Flag Had More Variations Than You'd Think](https://www.1stdibs.com/introspective-magazine/american-flags/)** > > It’s well-known that many early American flags had 13 stars, representing the 13 colonies that declared independence from Great Britain in 1776. Less well-known is that the United States never mandated a design for those flags. That’s what makes a... According to it, there was no standard design for the US flag until 1912, so there was quite a variety of arrangements of stars among thirteen-star flags. And the 15-star flag my neighbor is flying represents the period in the 1790s when Vermont and Kentucky had been admitted to the union. When I saw the Betsy Ross flag I was concerned the owner might be signaling racist sympathy, since that flag has been associated with the KKK historically, as well as more recently with white supremacist groups. But now that I’ve seen the fifteen-star flag, I’m more inclined to think they are simply flag fans who like to display a variety of flags. Fun fact: did you know that the official aspect ratio (width to height) of the US flag, according to the [US Flag Code](https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title4/chapter1&edition=prelim), is 1.9? So all the 3x5 or 4x6 flags are, technically, wrong. The ones with the correct aspect ratio are called “government specification” or “G-spec” and are harder to find, and generally more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/275 "2023-10-08T19:00:27Z")
> [@vbob](#): > > I expressed chagrin at that theft on Facebook, and was met with derision and threats for flying the wrong flag Any of the previous national flags are considered ‘active’ and can be flown. > **Is it appropriate to fly a flag that has fewer than 50 stars?** > > **Yes.** Official United States flags are always considered living, active flags. From the Betsy Ross flag to the present 50-star flag, any flag that at some time was the official flag is still considered a living flag to be accorded all due respect. [Cite.](https://www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htm) Tell your complaining neighbors to pound sand. > **[List of flags of the United States | National flags](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flags_of_the_United_States#National_flags)** > > Since 1818, a star for each new state has been added to the flag on the Fourth of July the year immediately following each state's admission. In years in which multiple states have been admitted, the corresponding number of stars were added to the flag. This change has typically been the only change made with each revision of the flag since 1777, with the exception of changes in 1795 and 1818, which increased the number of stripes to 15 and then returned it to 13, respectively. As the exact patte... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/276 "2023-10-08T19:39:43Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > However, there are a few thin blue line flags in the neighborhood, and I’m sorry, even though I don’t know these people, in the absence of any sign to the contrary, I assume they’re racists. That flag is too tainted, IMHO. It is commonly flown by family who have had one of their members die in the line of fire. How is that “racist” or tainted"? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/277 "2023-10-08T19:43:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It is commonly flown by family who have had one of their members die in the line of fire. How is that “racist” or tainted"? 118 LEO were killed in the line of duty in 2022. So what is the probability that this is the motivation for any given flag that you see? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/278 "2023-10-08T19:55:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > 118 LEO were killed in the line of duty in 2022. So what is the probability that this is the motivation for any given flag that you see? I fly an American flag in Honor of my Father, who died and was buried in Veterans cemetery several decades ago. Are you saying a person can only express honor for something that occured a year ago? Not to mention there is such a thing as extended family. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/279 "2023-10-08T19:58:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are you saying a person can only express honor for something that occured a year ago? 18 months if you file for an extension. ---
**Author:** ![vbob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vbob/32/4439_2.png) [@vbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vbob)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/280 "2023-10-08T20:10:28Z")
Thank you! Ignorance fought (mine…) Other folks - not so much. My immediate & actual neighbors supported me - it was my FaceBook ’neighbors’ (presumably on same planet, but …maybe not.) who took umbrage. I wasn’t sure it was legit to display the old flag, but it sure seemed appropriate, and hardly disrespectful. Maybe they were from Alaska and/or Hawaii…… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270.md?page=15)