# Does the display of American flags have some "hidden meaning" these days? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 17, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270 "2023-09-17T17:52:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/141 "2023-09-20T20:22:37Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I just don’t buy that. When I see the Maple Leaf flying over Parliament, it doesn’t mean that Parliament is an example of “X”. No one at all has talked about government flying a flag. We’ve talked about private individuals flying the flag over private property. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/142 "2023-09-20T20:23:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Symbols do not have objective meaning. Nothing does. Not even words. By “objective” I mean a shared consensus across a community of users, that we don’t get to subjectively _choose_ what words/symbols mean as individuals. I don’t mean objective in the sense of non-arbitrary. Of course the meaning of most symbols is arbitrary. A symbol could certainly mean something different to a different community of users, or to the same community of users at a different time. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/143 "2023-09-20T20:24:14Z")
But you’re saying that it has become a symbol of “X”, and that whenever you see it flying by itself (okay, private person), you’re saying that it has an unambiguous meaning of “X”. I just don’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/144 "2023-09-20T20:24:58Z")
Context matters doesn’t it? Is the flag on a house on the 4th of July? Is it on a monster truck? Are you in Alabama or California? Is there one flag or ten? Etc. Gotta read the room. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/145 "2023-09-20T20:27:08Z")
Except some of the posters seem to be saying that they always will have an asterisk of some sort; that they won’t display the flag by itself, even on their own property. That means X has won. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/146 "2023-09-20T20:34:55Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That means X has won. I wouldn’t put it quite so pessimistically. But we can’t just declare victory on _our_ side by saying “it doesn’t mean that to me”, we must acknowledge there is a semantic battle to be fought to reclaim it. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/147 "2023-09-20T20:38:33Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > … > When I see the Maple Leaf flying over Parliament, it doesn’t mean that Parliament is an example of “X”. Flags over government buildings mean what they always have. Because their context is unambiguously given by the building they’re flying over and what goes on in that building. Or at least they will until that government has been suborned into something very different from what that flag represented previously. At which time that same flag will mean something very different. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > My reaction is like What\_Exit? and DrDeth: If you say you can only fly your nation’s flag with some other symbol to make it clear that you’re not “X”, then you’ve accepted that your national flag means “X”, and you need some sort of asterisk to show “but not me”. > … I grant that needing an asterisk (good turn of phrase) is a problem. It _ought_ not be necessary. But it’s not _quite_ this: > … then you’ve accepted that your national flag means “X” … IMO it’s more: > … then you’ve accepted that your national flag ~~means “X”~~ is being mis-used by others to mean “X” and I’m not willing to mistaken for a mis-user in this currently ambiguous situation while we’re all tussling over the meaning. And I really think that’s a distinction worth making. When you drive past a noisy demonstration you can honk your horn in support or in angry denunciation. _How_ you honk matters. It would be damned nice if traitors didn’t try to take over national symbols. But it’s a play right out of chapter 1 of the populist nationalist authoritarian playbook. And it’s be naïve for ordinary citizens to not recognize that old play as soon as it’s trotted out, not just years later. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/148 "2023-09-20T22:07:02Z")
I realize that there are a couple of homes that I recall as having flown Trump flags, and posting other offensive MAGA yard signs. I see fewer of those than before and, as best I can recall, none of those are currently flying US flags. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/149 "2023-09-20T22:42:41Z")
[[quote=“What\_Exit, post:128, topic:990270”] half the posters here are ascribing a meaning to the American Flag that doesn’t exist. Especially in blue states. [/quote] I’m in New York State, have been for most of my life. “We are the real Americans and you are not” isn’t the only meaning by a long shot. But that meaning certainly does exist. I don’t even think that this is a new issue. Claiming the flag by fascists, yes. (Or maybe not. Isn’t there a photo somewhere of a Nazi rally full of American flags?) Claiming it for specific political positions – I don’t know that that’s new. Certainly the flag’s been used to support pro-war positions for quite a long time. Anybody flying an American flag in a pointed manner around 1970, unless as part of an anti-war protest, was probably in favor of the Vietnam war – because they were trying to paint anybody who wasn’t as unpatriotic. I took enough back-of-the-head impact from that, that I remember very strongly the day after Obama was first elected; I did some errands and drove through a town that had since 9-11 been flying a whole lot of flags – and thought how very nice it was to feel included in those flags. Because, for much of my life, they’d felt like they were aimed at me. Not immediately after 9-11; but they eventually became, again, rather a pro-war signal; and I thought we were mostly in the wrong war at that point. Now they sometimes are aimed at me, and for even worse reasons. Not in all contexts. But often enough for me to wonder, if I don’t have clear context. I don’t think the flag needs reclaiming, as such, yet. But I do think it currently needs explication. And I think that, in order for it not to need reclaiming, it needs to be carried with that explication; at least, when the context isn’t otherwise entirely clear. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > And there needs to be a push back then. That flag belongs to all of us. Yes, indeed. Push back by flying it, or carrying it, along with something that clarifies your intentions; presuming that it’s safe for you to do so. Could be a Pride flag, could be lots of other things. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > When I see the Maple Leaf flying over Parliament, it doesn’t mean that Parliament is an example of “X”. That’s sufficient context on its own. So, at least in the USA, is flying it over the post office, or in an ordinary fashion at the school, or waving it at a Fourth of July or Memorial Day parade. Flying it at one’s house is actually IME unusual enough in the USA that further context is necessary. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But you’re saying that it has become a symbol of “X”, and that whenever you see it flying by itself (okay, private person), you’re saying that it has an unambiguous meaning of “X”. I’m not. I’m saying that when I see it flown by a private person without other context I don’t know whether it has that meaning of X. But it certainly occurs to me that it might. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/150 "2023-09-20T23:08:34Z")
That was my take away from your post, that the Amercan flag was as toxic as a swastika. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/151 "2023-09-20T23:13:02Z")
Honest question…where in what I wrote did you see that? I’ve looked at it many times now. I see no mention of the American flag. None. Not even in context to the post I responded to. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/152 "2023-09-20T23:46:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That was my take away from your post, that the Amercan flag was as toxic as a swastika. No, it was a _reductio ad absurdum_ of the notion that an individual can use a symbol to mean anything they choose, regardless of what other people generally understand it to mean. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I see no mention of the American flag. None. Not even in context to the post I responded to. To play devil’s advocate, the thread centers on the American flag. But I thought your meaning was clear. The point of a _reductio ad absurdum_ is to apply a principle to an extreme case (the swastika), to show the flaw in the principle. The entire point is that the primary case under consideration in the thread (the American flag) is _not_ that extreme, so the flaw in the principle is less obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/153 "2023-09-21T00:00:28Z")
So, after perusing this thread, and knowing I’m in a particularly “science-y” and academic community (where Hawaiian shirts have a specific Cold War implication), I’ll ask the SDMB at large . . . Has _this_ flag been co-opted? I haven’t seen it in public yet, but have mine at the office. > **[Bennington flag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennington_flag)** > > The Bennington flag is a version of the American flag associated with the American Revolution Battle of Bennington, from which it derives its name. Its distinguishing feature is the inclusion of a large '76' in the canton, a reference to the year 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was signed. > Like many Revolution era flags, the Bennington features 13 stars and 13 stripes, symbolic of the 13 American colonies that were in a state of rebellion against Great Britain. The Bennington version i... Tripler Context available on request–but I’m curious what first impressions are. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/154 "2023-09-21T00:29:57Z")
The funny thing about swastikas is: I have a bunch of co-workers who really don’t see it as a verboten symbol. I’ve had more than one co-worker who’s painted it on the hood of their car. To a Hindu who was raised in India, the good associated with the symbol can outweigh the bad others associate with it. For reference, this is the design they painted on their hood: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/HinduSwastika.svg/800px-HinduSwastika.svg.png) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/HinduSwastika.svg/800px-HinduSwastika.svg.png) This is in Texas, so I guess I could kind of forgive someone for thinking the owner of the car _might_ be a Nazi of some stripe if that is painted on the hood. But I in turn would assume the person thinking that at best wasn’t well versed in world religions, and at worst may be primarily motivated by fear. If someone jumped to the conclusion the car’s owner was absolutely a Nazi without any other very strong clues, I’d think them even dimmer. Symbols are pretty wildly interpret-able, you bring a lot of your own context when you try to interpret them. Always try to accept that you may be missing out on the presenter’s context. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/155 "2023-09-21T00:42:25Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I have a bunch of co-workers who really don’t see it as a verboten symbol. But I’m guessing that they deliberately chose a version that minimizes the resemblance to the Nazi version. The thing is, though, it’s impossible to beat the assholes. If it became common and generally accepted here for people to display that version (red and curvy with dots) for its older religious significance, neo-Nazis would inevitably start using _that_ version as a dogwhistle with plausible deniability. It’s like the problem with “niggardly”. You can’t just stubbonly say it’s ignorant to deprecate its use, because if it’s acceptable to use it, the racists will use it as a (none-too-subtle) dogwhistle. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/156 "2023-09-21T00:43:27Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > at worst may be primarily motivated by fear. A lot of people have had extremely good reason to be frightened of people wearing/using swastikas. I’m aware that the symbol has been used otherwise for millennia. I was not aware that adding dots to it makes it Hindu. I would suggest making your friend aware of likely misinterpretations. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/157 "2023-09-21T01:04:35Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > For reference, this is the design they painted on their hood: Clearly they painted it backwards so that anyone seeing them in the rear view mirror would be able to easily identify the threatening hate symbol! /s ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/158 "2023-09-21T01:23:31Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The thing is, though, it’s impossible to beat the assholes. If it became common and generally accepted here for people to display that version (red and curvy with dots) for its older religious significance, neo-Nazis would inevitably start using _that_ version as a dogwhistle with plausible deniability. I find that hard to believe. I’m pretty sure there’d be enough context to discern most neo-Nazis from Hindus if they tried that. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’m aware that the symbol has been used otherwise for millennia. I was not aware that adding dots to it makes it Hindu. I would suggest making your friend aware of likely misinterpretations. I’m reasonably sure they’re aware of possible misinterpretations and are making a conscious choice to use it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/159 "2023-09-21T13:33:09Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > I’m curious what first impressions are. Good question. My first impression is that it’s part of the Bicentennial buzz of a half century ago (which was sufficiently intense that I kept the PA “Bicentennial State” vehicle tag with the 76 date sticker that became surplus for me, though it does a useful job hiding the hole for the outdoor spigot shutoff). Not that I’m sure it’s supposed to be, just that that is my first impression. I’m interested to read in your cite that it actually has such early provenance and didn’t originate with Bicentennial buzz at all. ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270/160 "2023-09-21T19:21:37Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > New couple on the corner fly a flag 24x7x365 without a light on it. The old sailor in me has considered letting them know that is actually incorrect but I have refrained. This is new to me. Former failed boy-scout here who remembers that there were a few rules about displaying the flag. What it this about putting a light on the flag? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-display-of-american-flags-have-some-hidden-meaning-these-days/990270.md?page=9)