# Does the external world exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803 "2012-05-23T07:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/1 "2012-05-23T07:39:29Z")
> [@My take on God, if anybody cares.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/244): > > The fact that you and I live our lives _as though_ the external world exists does not prove that it does. > [@My take on God, if anybody cares.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/245): > > Speak for yourself. You and I DO NOT live our lives as though the external world exists. You live your life as though the external world exists. I live my life as though you and other minds live their life _as though_ the external world exists. From [previous](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14634446#post14634446) GD thread. To the question in the thread title, my answer is “no”. How did I arrive at this answer? Easy. I took **The Hampster King** ’s philosophical position, i.e. “I live my life _as though_ the external world exists” and from that philosophical position derived my philosophical position, i.e. “I live my life as though you and [other minds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_other_minds) live their life _as though_ the external world exists”. The hard part: Determining which philosophical position is right - - **The Hampster King** ’s philosophical position - I live my life _as though_ the external world exists or **Kozmik** ’s philosophical position - I live my life as though you and other minds live their life _as though_ the external world exists. Determining which philosophical position is right seems to rest on answering the question in the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/2 "2012-05-23T07:50:29Z")
What? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/3 "2012-05-23T08:57:02Z")
It is possible for both of you to be correct. ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/4 "2012-05-23T09:59:43Z")
Other minds aren’t part of an external world? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/5 "2012-05-23T11:07:29Z")
Go a month or so while declining to participate in the imaginary external world by not eating, staying home from work, etc., then get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/6 "2012-05-23T13:21:28Z")
Your position is incoherent. By positing the existence of “other minds”, you have already accepted the notion that it is useful to behave as though the external world exists. If you were truly a solipsist you would not have beliefs about “other minds” because you would not believe there were such things as “other minds” to have beliefs about. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/7 "2012-05-23T14:17:03Z")
People who have realized the Self will tell you that the true universe is a sort of solipsistic reality- there is only the Self and everything else is an illusion. In fact, the ego created the universe, and the ego maintains the illusion of separateness in order to sustain its own existence. It isn’t true solipsism because other minds are actually of the Self along with ‘you’, which doesn’t truly exist in the way you’re used to thinking of it. Short answer: When you look at the outside world, whatever aspect it is, realize, “I am that.” It’s just that simple! Except that it sounds completely bonkers. Let’s look at some more answers… ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/8 "2012-05-23T14:20:26Z")
I think that solipsism is a great philosophy, and I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t believe in it. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/9 "2012-05-23T15:51:21Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I think that solipsism is a great philosophy, and I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t believe in it. Since _I_ believe in it, it follows that \*everyone \* believes it. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/10 "2012-05-23T19:32:53Z")
Shouldn’t you have defined “exist” as “what the external world does”? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/11 "2012-05-23T20:16:29Z")
Solipsism is ultimately un-falsifiable. Cartesian doubt can never be dismissed. It might all be a dream. You might be the subject of an elaborate holodeck hoax. That’s just the way it is. Accept is as a pointless possibility, and get on with activities that appear to have operational validity. If we can’t wake up from the dream, we can at least continue to have conversations, eat dinner, get our cars repaired…and even have dreams within our dreams. G’night everyone! ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/12 "2012-05-24T02:21:10Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Your position is incoherent. Coming from _you_, that is a complement. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > By positing the existence of “other minds”, you have already accepted the notion that it is useful to behave as though the external world exists. Ah! But I already accepted the notion that it is useful to behave as though other minds exist. When I was in college, I behaved as though other students believed that [that](http://www.ditext.com/russell/rus1.html) table really is there. Now that I am working, I behave as though other workers believe that our work place is really there, that the car that they drove and parked in the parking lot is really there, that they are, in fact, going to work, that they are eating lunch, sitting in the lunch room at a table that is really there, that when they leave at the end of the day that their car will still be there and that they can drive that car home or to wherever it is they want to go. What’s more, because you and other minds work, I work. Because you and other minds drive a car to work, I drive a car to work. Because you and other minds eat lunch, I eat lunch. Because you and other mind leave at the end of the day, I leave at the end of the day. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If you were truly a solipsist you would not have beliefs about “other minds” because you would not believe there were such things as “other minds” to have beliefs about. Really? Anyways, I never said I was a solipsist or not. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/13 "2012-05-24T04:26:47Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Coming from _you_, that is a complement. Why thank you! > [@](#): > > But I already accepted the notion that it is useful to behave as though other minds exist. As do I. I fail to see why you think this is some major point. I live my life as though the external world exists. Other minds are part of that external world. Those other minds appear to behave as though they believe in the external world as well. Therefore I live my life as though there are minds other than mine that believe in the existence of an external reality. I cannot \*prove \*these assertions, but I accept them provisionally as a useful way of understanding the sensations that I experience. > [@](#): > > Really? Anyways, I never said I was a solipsist or not. You wrote: > [@](#): > > You and I DO NOT live our lives as though the external world exists. You live your life as though the external world exists. In other words: A is the proposition “THK lives his life as though the external world exists.” B is the proposition “K lives his life as though the external world exists.” You assert: A & B is false. A is true. Therefore B is false. **Therefore K lives his life as though the external world does not exist.** Perhaps that was not your intended meaning, but it is certainly the logical conclusion from what you wrote. This is why I said your position was incoherent. Logically, your statement is an embrace of solipsism. But what you wrote later contradicts that interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/14 "2012-05-24T04:34:18Z")
Dogs are cool. Cats suck. Anything beyond this universal truth is simply conjecture. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/15 "2012-05-24T04:36:13Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Anyways, I never said I was a solipsist or not. Oh, and there’s also this: > [@](#): > > To the question in the thread title, my answer is “no”. So … you claim that the external world doesn’t exist … how is that different from claiming to be a solipsist? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/16 "2012-05-24T05:56:07Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Oh, and there’s also this: > > So … you claim that the external world doesn’t exist … how is that different from claiming to be a solipsist? 😕 Kozmik is mindless of the implications. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/17 "2012-05-25T02:14:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Go a month or so while declining to participate in the imaginary external world by not eating, staying home from work, etc., then get back to us. That’s already been done, from [here](http://www.beasyouare.info/beasyouare.html): > [@](#): > > In I896 a sixteen-year-old schoolboy walked out on his family and, > driven by an inner compulsion, slowly made his way to Arunachala, > a holy mountain and pilgrimage centre in South India. On his arrival > he threw away all his money and possessions and abandoned himself > to a newly-discovered awareness that his real nature was formless, > immanent consciousness. His absorption in this awareness was so > intense that he was completely oblivious of his body and the world; > insects chewed away portions of his legs, his body wasted away > because he was rarely conscious enough to eat and his hair and > fingernails grew to unmanageable lengths. After two or three years > in this state he began a slow return to physical normality, a process > that was not finally completed for several years. His awareness of > himself as consciousness was unaffected by this physical transition > and it remained continuous and undimmed for the rest of his life. In > Hindu parlance he had `realized the Self’; that is to say, he had > realized by direct experience that nothing existed apart from an > indivisible and universal consciousness which was experienced in its > unmanifest form as beingness or awareness and in its manifest form > as the appearance of the universe. But this is _jnana_. It is not clear that the subject was a Hindu, as he is quoted criticizing Hinduism. This isn’t yoga either, and the subject criticized that too. AFAIK this is the most authentic presentation of a _jnani_’s ‘POV’ available- I use scare quotes because there isn’t really any possibility of various POVs to a _jnani_: > [@](#): > > _Q: If the Self is itself aware, why am I not aware of it even now?_ > A: **There is no duality**. Your present knowledge is due to the ego and is only relative. Relative knowledge requires a subject and an object, whereas the awareness of the Self is absolute and requires no object. Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/18 "2012-05-25T02:52:14Z")
Pound your thumb with a hammer. See? The external world exists. Nobody dreams pain. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/19 "2012-05-25T02:55:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Pound your thumb with a hammer. > > See? The external world exists. > > Nobody dreams pain. Well… Maybe not… The old “pinch yourself to see if you’re dreaming” test doesn’t always work. There are people who have dreamed pain. (To be fair, not as intense a pain as a whacked thumb…) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/20 "2012-05-25T03:36:56Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well… Maybe not… The old “pinch yourself to see if you’re dreaming” test doesn’t always work. There are people who have dreamed pain. > > (To be fair, not as intense a pain as a whacked thumb…) I’ve only ever dreamed pain when I was sleeping on my arm the wrong way or something. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803.md?page=2)