# Does the external world exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803 "2012-05-23T07:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/21 "2012-05-25T06:41:50Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Dogs are cool. > Cats suck. There is no P in Hamster ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/22 "2012-05-25T12:22:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > There is no P in Hamster Not anymore. That’s why we need to change the bedding. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/23 "2012-05-26T07:00:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Go a month or so while declining to participate in the imaginary external world by not eating, staying home from work, etc., then get back to us. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > That’s already been done, from [here](http://www.beasyouare.info/beasyouare.html) Go a day participating in the imaginary external world while not interacting with other minds (the SDMB excepted). What do you learn? > [@TATG](#): > > Kozmik is mindless of the implications. What are the implications? > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Therefore I live my life as though there are minds other than mine that believe in the existence of an external reality. If I may reword your conclusion: Therefore I live my life as though there are other minds that believe in the existence of an external world. And if I may parse it: There are other minds that believe in the existence of an external world. And if I may refute it: There are other minds that believe in the existence of you. ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/24 "2012-05-26T08:29:17Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > What are the implications? On review, I guess you could be some sort of idealist that thought there were _only_ minds (if you construe “external world” to just mean “non-mental thing”). So far as I can tell that is the only consistent position you could hold. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/25 "2012-05-27T00:12:59Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Go a day participating in the imaginary external world while not interacting with other minds (the SDMB excepted). What do you learn? You persist in delusion. There is no duality. Without duality, there is no distinction such as internal/external (imaginary or not), nor is there individual-self/others. Your own mind isn’t real, let alone others or their minds. There is only the Self. From the same source: > [@](#): > > _Q: Does my realisation help others?_ > A: Yes, certainly. It is the best help possible. But there are no others to be helped. For a realised being sees only the Self, just like a goldsmith estimating the gold in various items of jewelry sees only gold. When you identify yourself with the body then only the forms and shapes are there. But when you transcend your body the others disappear along with your body-consciousness. > > _Q: Is it so with plants, trees, etc.?_ > A: Do they exist at all apart from the Self? Find it out. You think that you see them. The thought is projected out from the Self. Find out from where it rises. Thoughts will cease to rise and the Self alone will remain. > > _Q: I understand theoretically. But they are still there._ > A: Yes. It is like a cinema-show. There is the light on the screen and the shadows flitting across it impress the audience as the enactment of some piece. If in the same play an audience also is shown on the screen as part of the performance, the seer and the seen will then both be on the screen. Apply it to yourself. You are the screen, the Self has created the ego, the ego has its accretions of thoughts which are displayed as the world, the trees and the plants of which you are asking. In reality, all these are nothing but the Self. If you see the Self, the same will be found to be all, everywhere and always. Nothing but the Self exists. Concerning the unreality of minds: > [@](#): > > Q:\* How then does ignorance of this one and only reality unhappily arise in the case of the \*ajani _[one who has not realised the Self]?_ > A: The _anjani_ sees only the mind which is a mere reflection of the light of pure consciousness arising from the Heart. Of the Heart itself he is ignorant. Why? Because his mind is extroverted and has never sought its source. > > _Q: What prevents the infinite, undifferentiated light of consciousness arising from the Heart from revealing itself to the_ ajani\*?\* > A: Just as water in a pot reflects the enormous sun within the narrow limits of the pot, even so the _vasanas_ or latent tendencies of the mind of the individual, acting as the reflecting medium, catch the all-pervading, infinite light of consciousness arising from the Heart. The form of this reflection is the phenomenon called the mind. Seeing only this reflection, the _ajnani_ is deluded into the belief that he is a finite being, the _jiva_, the individual self. But is this guy correct? Frankly I don’t know. If I had to guess, I would say I have not realised the Self either. But he is rather insistent that you don’t have to take his word for it or rely on faith or what-have-you. Over and over again he says to ‘see for yourself’, and ostensibly explains how to do that. But with my busy schedule, who has time to destroy the ego? I have not yet got to it. But you or someone else could give it a go and then get back to us. It isn’t intended to be a philosophy or a religion either, but rather just the way it is. To its credit, compare with a debate about Mormonism: > [@](#): > > 1- I guess I don’t buy it. Do you have any evidence for this? Can I bring my buddies from the antiquities and linguistics departments and have a look at these Golden Plates? > 2- No, sorry. No one can see the Plates. You will just have to take our word for it. > 1- But that’s the problem, I don’t see why I should just take your word for it. Can’t I just see the Plates? > 2- Absolutely not. > 1- Pretty please? > 2- No. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/26 "2012-05-27T03:18:22Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Your own mind isn’t real, let alone others or their minds. One of the other minds makes my own mind real. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/27 "2012-05-27T03:55:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nobody dreams pain. This is laughably wrong, at least for me. One of the most painful experiences of my life was a dream. I’d rate it an 8 or 9. It was so vivid and powerful, that I was emotionally shaken by it for quite a while afterward, and I won’t ever forget it. There was no evidence of any external stimulus that my dreaming brain could have been picking up (like sleeping on my arm wrong) and incorporating in my dream, so I’m pretty sure that I dreamed it up entirely. I have experienced pain in more than just that one dream too. Perhaps I’m unique, but now you know that your statement isn’t true! Also, for the record, I am no solipsist. I actually (jokingly) encourage all solipsists to commit suicide. If I go on living after they die, it proves to me that they were wrong 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/28 "2012-05-27T04:36:12Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Also, for the record, I am no solipsist. I actually (jokingly) encourage all solipsists to commit suicide. If I go on living after they die, it proves to me that they were wrong 😃 Game Theory. I encourage all solipsists to commit suicide on the same day at the same time. Now _that’s_ a Prisoner’s Dilemma. 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/29 "2012-05-27T04:38:21Z")
External to what? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/30 "2012-05-27T16:19:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Pound your thumb with a hammer. > > See? The external world exists. > > Nobody dreams pain. From the same source again > [@](#): > > _Q: Does a_ jnani _have dreams?_ > A: Yes, he does dream, but he knows it to be a dream, in the same way as he knows the waking state to be a dream. You may call them dream no.1 and dream no.2. The _jnani_ being established in the fourth state- _turiya_, the supreme reality- he detachedly witnesses the three other states, waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep, as pictures superimposed upon it. > > For those who experience waking, dream and sleep, the state of wakeful sleep, which is beyond those three states, is named\* turia\* [the fourth]. But since _turiya_ alone exists and since the seeming three states do not exist, know for certain that \*turiya \*is itself _turiyatita_ [that which transcends the fourth]. > > _Q: For the_ jnani\* then, there is no distinction between the three states of mind?\* > A: How can there be, when the mind itself is dissolved and lost in the light of consciousness? > > For the _jnani_ all the three states are equally unreal. But the _ajnani_ is unable to comprehend this, because for him the standard of reality is the waking state, whereas for the\* jnani\* the standard of reality is reality itself. The reality of pure consciousness is eternal by its nature and therefore subsists equally during what you call waking, dreaming, and sleep. To him who is one with that reality there is neither the mind nor its three states and, therefore, neither introversion nor extroversion. > > His is the ever-waking state, because he is awake to the eternal Self; his is the ever-dreaming state, because to him the world is no better than a repeatedly presented dream phenomenon; his is the ever-sleeping state, because he is at all times without the ‘body-am-I’ consciousness. > [@Kozmik](#): > > Game Theory. > > I encourage all solipsists to commit suicide on the same day at the same time. Now _that’s_ a Prisoner’s Dilemma. 😃 😃 That isn’t good enough- you are not the body, killing it doesn’t really change anything. Again from the same source: > [@](#): > > _Q: I see you doing things. How can you say that you never perform actions?_ > A: The radio sings and speaks, but if you open it you will find no one inside. Similarly, my existence is like the space; though this body speaks like the radio, there is no one inside as a doer. The body is not important in this view. OTOH, it isn’t clear how much _jnana_ overlaps with solipsism. I don’t know much about solipsism, but I’m pretty sure it is a distinct constellation of ideas from what I am quoting. Maybe someone will come along with a source presenting a good defense of solipsism and we can compare them. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/31 "2012-05-27T18:07:08Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > This is laughably wrong, at least for me. One of the most painful experiences of my life was a dream. I’d rate it an 8 or 9. It was so vivid and powerful, that I was emotionally shaken by it for quite a while afterward, and I won’t ever forget it. There was no evidence of any external stimulus that my dreaming brain could have been picking up (like sleeping on my arm wrong) and incorporating in my dream, so I’m pretty sure that I dreamed it up entirely. > > I have experienced pain in more than just that one dream too. Perhaps I’m unique, but now you know that your statement isn’t true! I too have experienced physical pain in a dream. It shouldn’t matter for the solipsist either way though: whether you can feel pain in “the matrix”, and whether you can feel pain in dreams within the matrix, are two different things. Some video games contain simple games embedded within them, e.g. a simple pacman clone. If I were a character within the ubergame, I would obviously be wrong to conclude I am not in a game because my reality is more complex than pacman. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/32 "2012-05-27T18:14:19Z")
From Boswell’s _Life of Johnson_: > [@](#): > > After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley’s ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it – “I refute it thus.” Gotta love the Doc! ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/33 "2012-05-27T21:25:08Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > From [previous](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14634446#post14634446) GD thread. > To the question in the thread title, my answer is “no”. How did I arrive at this answer? Easy. I took **The Hampster King** ’s philosophical position, i.e. “I live my life _as though_ the external world exists” and from that philosophical position derived my philosophical position, i.e. “I live my life as though you and [other minds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_other_minds) live their life _as though_ the external world exists”. The hard part: Determining which philosophical position is right - - **The Hampster King** ’s philosophical position - I live my life _as though_ the external world exists or **Kozmik** ’s philosophical position - I live my life as though you and other minds live their life _as though_ the external world exists. Determining which philosophical position is right seems to rest on answering the question in the thread title. Then why are you using words that refer to things in the external world? You would have to convince us without using these words. And what’s the point of trying to convince us anyway, if we don’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/34 "2012-05-27T23:25:43Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > If I may reword your conclusion: > > Therefore I live my life as though there are other minds that believe in the existence of an external world. Yes. > [@](#): > > And if I may parse it: > > There are other minds that believe in the existence of an external world. No. There statements are not equivalent. The fact that I live my life as though a proposition is true is not proof that the proposition is true. For example: Stating “I live my life as though the Force from Star Wars is real.” is not equivalent to stating “The Force from Star Wars is real.” > [@](#): > > And if I may refute it: > > There are other minds that believe in the existence of you. That’s not a refutation. That not even a contradiction. You’re talking nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/35 "2012-05-28T19:03:44Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Then why are you using words that refer to things in the external world? Because you and other minds use those words. It’s like it’s 12:00 AM and a group of friends is at my door and they invite me to go out to a party. I say, “I can’t. I have work tomorrow.” _not_ “I can’t. I have work today.” I don’t want to be like Professor Frink: > [@](#): > > Frink: Good morning, ma’am, good afternoon sir. It passed noon while I was speaking so that was technically accurate. > Homer: He’s crazy. 🙂 > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > That’s not a refutation. That not even a contradiction. You’re talking nonsense. There are other minds that believe in the existence of you. Let’s analyze this. There are other minds that believe in the existence of **The Hamster King**. (The “p” stood for proposition.) Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that **The Hamster King** died or that **The Hamster King** _could_ die. This is why “There are other minds that believe in the existence of you” is a refutation. Because it is not the case that there are other minds that believe in the existence of you. To other minds, in the widest possible sense, you are dead. Unless… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/36 "2012-05-28T23:44:25Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > . . . There are other minds that believe in the existence of you. Let’s analyze this. There are other minds that believe in the existence of **The Hamster King**. (The “p” stood for proposition.) Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that **The Hamster King** died or that **The Hamster King** _could_ die. This is why “There are other minds that believe in the existence of you” is a refutation. Because it is not the case that there are other minds that believe in the existence of you. To other minds, in the widest possible sense, you are dead. Unless… Um… Huh? My sister believes in me. She has fairly good reason: the evidence of her senses, a long tradition, a couple of scars… She knows I can die. She knows I damn well will die some day. She also knows that she can die, and that she might die first. To other minds, some day, I will be dead… But you haven’t shown that, to other minds, I am dead. And…what was going to follow that “Unless…?” I once had a philosophy professor who argued that “mind reading” is impossible, because, if I can somehow have “your” thoughts in “my” mind…then they automatically become “my” thoughts, not yours. What’s charming about this is that is precludes the possibility of communication. If I talk to you, aren’t “my” thoughts becoming “your” thoughts in some sense? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/37 "2012-05-29T00:09:01Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > To other minds, some day, I will be dead… But you haven’t shown that, to other minds, I am dead. There are other minds that believe in the existence of you. There are other minds that believe in the existence of **Trinopus**. No. No. Someone in China will never see you, will never meet you, will never know you. Someone in China does not believe in the existence of you. He or she may believe in the existence of other minds. He or she may believe in the existence of the external world. However, unless he or she is enlightened, he or she does not believe in the existence of you. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/38 "2012-05-29T03:46:31Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > There are other minds that believe in the existence of you. There are other minds that believe in the existence of **Trinopus**. No. No. What does “No. No.” mean? > [@](#): > > Someone in China will never see you, will never meet you, will never know you. Someone in China does not believe in the existence of you. He or she may believe in the existence of other minds. He or she may believe in the existence of the external world. However, unless he or she is enlightened, he or she does not believe in the existence of you. Sure. And there are billions of people I’ll never meet. There are several forms of “generalization” that lead me to believe in them. Census figures. Photographs of crowds. Testimony from people who have seen those crowds. Photographs of cities from orbit. And so on. So, yeah, I believe in a LOT of people I’ve never seen, and will never see. It’s a kind of “distributed faith.” Meanwhile, there are enough people who do know me, who have met me, and, in fact, who have a pretty good idea of what I’m like, to comfort me in my belief in my own existence. (As far as all those billions of people who will never know me… Well, that’s their loss, innit?) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/39 "2012-05-29T04:32:11Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What does “No. No.” mean? A rhetorical device. There are other minds that believe in the existence of you. There are other minds that believe in the existence of **Trinopus**. Not! > [@Trinopus](#): > > Meanwhile, there are enough people who do know me, who have met me, and, in fact, who have a pretty good idea of what I’m like, to comfort me in my belief in my own existence. It’s not a question of people knowing you, meeting you, or seeing you. It’s a question of whether there are other minds that believe in the existence of you. You believe in the existence of other minds. Do other minds believe in the existence of you? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/40 "2012-05-29T05:22:34Z")
Unless somebody has a red pill for me to swallow, I fail to see why any of this matters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803.md?page=3)