# Does the external world exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803 "2012-05-23T07:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/41 "2012-05-29T05:44:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Go a month or so while declining to participate in the imaginary external world by not eating, staying home from work, etc., then get back to us. You are assuming your body exists in some physical universe. When you get further down this philosophical rabbit hole you will realize that your body not only does not _need_ to exist, it _cannot_ exist lest the nonsatisfaction of its needs disrupt your journey to enlightenment.\* Jeeze, don’t schools teach basic science anymore? :mad: - - Hmm, I like that. I might need to pull it on my AA friends. Nah, some are too fragile to fuck with and the dopers probably thought of it already, though they don’t remember it. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/42 "2012-05-29T06:47:56Z")
I’m with Plato. People are just sad abstractions who cannot but fail to measure up to the Divine. Fuck them and the reality they rode in on. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/43 "2012-05-29T07:15:27Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Because you and other minds use those words. That’s BS and you know it. If you want to deny the external world, then stop using words that refer to it. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/44 "2012-05-29T14:47:53Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > That’s BS and you know it. If you want to deny the external world, then stop using words that refer to it. What about atheists that want to deny God? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/45 "2012-05-29T16:06:46Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > You believe in the existence of other minds. Do other minds believe in the existence of you? I believe that they do. However, I cannot prove that assertion. I still have absolutely no idea what your point is. Instead of being clever and indirect and hoping I will connect the dots, why don’t you explain it to me like I’m really, really stupid. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/46 "2012-05-29T16:21:19Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I still have absolutely no idea what your point is. Instead of being clever and indirect and hoping I will connect the dots, why don’t you explain it to me like I’m really, really stupid. You may wish to review [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=646590) before wasting any more time on this fool’s errand. Being “clever” and indirect is the OP’s shtick—and if he finds that statement offensive, it’s his own fault for imagining the existence of a **Vinyl Turnip** to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/47 "2012-05-29T17:21:25Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I believe that they do. However, I cannot prove that assertion. **TATG** knew where I was going with this: > [@TATG](#): > > On review, I guess you could be some sort of idealist that thought there were _only_ minds (if you construe “external world” to just mean “non-mental thing”). So far as I can tell that is the only consistent position you could hold. I guess that makes me an [idealist](http://www.ditext.com/russell/rus4.html): [QUOTE=Bertrand Russell] I have not the honour to be acquainted with the Emperor of China, but I truly judge that he exists. It may be said, of course, that I judge this because of other people’s acquaintance with him. This, however, would be an irrelevant retort, since, if the principle were true, I could not know that any one else is acquainted with him. But further: there is no reason why I should not know of the existence of something with which nobody is acquainted. This point is important, and demands elucidation. [/QUOTE] Or, perhaps, something else. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > You may wish to review [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=646590) before wasting any more time on this fool’s errand. **TATG** “wasted” time on this “fool’s errand” and he figured out more than you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/48 "2012-05-29T18:02:15Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > **TATG** “wasted” time on this “fool’s errand” and he figured out more than you. Are you treating this as some sort of game? Scatter a few bread crumbs on the ground and see who’s bright enough to follow them? As I said, why don’t you assume that I’m really, really stupid? I can’t follow your breadcrumbs. What exactly am I supposed to be “figuring out”? It sounds like you’re trying to say that you don’t believe that the material world exists. Only different consciousnesses. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/49 "2012-05-29T19:14:34Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > [QUOTE= Trinopus] > > What does “No. No.” mean? A rhetorical device. [/QUOTE] It’s not working.. ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/50 "2012-05-29T20:23:28Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > **TATG** knew where I was going with this: > > I guess that makes me an [idealist](http://www.ditext.com/russell/rus4.html): > > Or, perhaps, something else. So state your position. > [@Kozmik](#): > > **TATG** “wasted” time on this “fool’s errand” and he figured out more than you. In the very post where you claim I wasn’t wasting my time you are engaging in guessing games about your position. So I don’t the scare quotes are necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/51 "2012-05-30T00:16:06Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Are you treating this as some sort of game? Scatter a few bread crumbs on the ground and see who’s bright enough to follow them? > > As I said, why don’t you assume that I’m really, really stupid? I can’t follow your breadcrumbs. What exactly am I supposed to be “figuring out”? > > It sounds like you’re trying to say that you don’t believe that the material world exists. Only different consciousnesses. Is that correct? I’m not getting it either, and I’m pretty sure that neither of us is stupid. I don’t mind a modicum of playfulness in a philosophy post, but being mysterious for the sake of being mysterious is not the behavior of a wise guru. That said, I’ve tried to follow lectures that were, in fact, made as simple as possible, for the purposes of widespread intelligibility…and still wandered away completely at sea. The Transcendental Meditation guys, especially, lose me every time. Once, a TM group sponsored a free lecture at my old college. I was the only one who showed up. An audience of one! So I had the lecturer completely to myself. He came down from the stage and sat by my side, and chatted with me, and did everything he possibly could to make his explanation plain. And… When the hour was up, I went away, without having comprehended a single syllable of the fellow’s wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/52 "2012-05-30T00:46:57Z")
I have long felt that anyone who is not explicitly dualist must hold one of the following two positions: 1) that only the external world exists, there is no inner life or mental world; or, 2) only the internal world exists, there is no external world which is mind-independent. I suppose one could posit further that reality is in fact dependent—dependent on god for instance—which could subdivide both the previous two—I’d guess Berkeley would be in the latter camp while maybe Leibniz would be in the former. I personally lean towards the idealism side, though really not much, as if both sides agree there is just this one substance, it doesn’t really seem to matter whether we call it “mind” or “matter.” ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/53 "2012-05-30T03:14:34Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > You are assuming your body exists in some physical universe. When you get further down this philosophical rabbit hole you will realize that your body not only does not _need_ to exist, it _cannot_ exist lest the nonsatisfaction of its needs disrupt your journey to enlightenment.\* Jeeze, don’t schools teach basic science anymore? :mad: > > - > - Hmm, I like that. I might need to pull it on my AA friends. Nah, some are too fragile to fuck with and the dopers probably thought of it already, though they don’t remember it. Well, no one is responding to me here, which I suppose is appropriate in a thread like this. But you and **Tomndebb** have both brought up the ‘denial of the world’ thing as what I take as a _reductio ad absurdum_ kind of argument. I don’t even know why I am trying to explain this stance, but the same source I’ve been quoting doesn’t think it is necessary to starve yourself &etc: (btw, all the previous quotes were about the ‘enquiry’ method of realisation. Here he has switched to the ‘surrender’ or religious method, which he claims leads to the same result) > [@](#): > > _Ananya saranagati_ [complete surrender] means to be without any attachment to thoughts, no doubt, but does it mean to discard even thoughts of food and water which are essential for the sustenance of the physical body ? He asks, `Should I eat only if I get anything by God's direction, and without my asking for it? Or should I make a little effort?' All right. Let us take it that what we have to eat comes of its own accord. But even then, who is to eat? Suppose somebody puts it in our mouth, should we not swallow it at least? Is that not an effort ? He asks, `If I become sick, should I take medicine or should I keep quiet leaving my health and sickness in the hands of God?’ In the book Sadhana Panchakam written by Sankara, it is stated that for treatment of the disease called hunger one should eat food received as alms. But then one must at least go out and beg for it. If all people close their eyes and sit still saying if the food comes we eat, how is the world to get on? Hence one must take things as they come in accordance with one’s traditions, but one must be free from the feeling that one is doing them oneself. The feeling that I am doing it is the bondage. It is therefore necessary to consider and find out the method whereby such a feeling can be overcome, instead of doubting as to whether medicine should be administered if one is sick or whether food should be taken if one is hungry. Such doubts will continue to come up and will never end. Even such doubts as `May I groan if there is pain? May I inhale air after exhaling?’ also occur. Call it _Iswara_ [God] or call it _karma_[destiny]; some _karta_ [higher power] will carry on everything in this world according to the development of the mind of each individual. If the responsibility is thrown on the higher power things will go on of their own accord. We walk on this ground. While doing so, do we consider at every step whether we should raise one leg after the other or stop at some stage? Isn’t the walking done automatically? The same is the case with inhaling and exhaling. No special effort is made to inhale or exhale. The same is the case with this life also. Can we give up anything if we want to, or do anything as we please? Quite a number of things are done automatically without our being conscious of it. Complete surrender to God means giving up all thoughts and concentrating the mind on him. If we can concentrate on him, other thoughts disappear. If the actions of the mind, speech and body are merged with God, all the burdens of our life will be on him. And at that point you will ostensibly lose your ego and you’ll see things in non-dualistic terms, at which point it will be clear that there is no internal/external world. Not solipsism at all- I don’t really know what to make of this guy. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/54 "2012-05-30T03:31:03Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I have long felt that anyone who is not explicitly dualist must hold one of the following two positions: 1) that only the external world exists, there is no inner life or mental world; or, 2) only the internal world exists, there is no external world which is mind-independent. . . . What about an in-between notion: the external world exists, and the internal world is an imperfect model of it. I’m driving around, using a map, because I can’t truly know the territory. But the map is good enough. It is built up, over time, from many observations of the real territory. I know it isn’t real, but it works to get me around. I can never know you; but I can relate, fairly well, to the picture of you that I carry in my mind. It is at least good enough for us to have a conversation in a philosophy thread in a debate forum… Sure, you (or I) might be just a really sophisticated “Eliza” program. The Turing Test will always be, like Occam’s Razor, a guideline for argument, not a proof… ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/55 "2012-05-30T04:35:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m driving around, using a map, because I can’t truly know the territory. But the map is good enough. It is built up, over time, from many observations of the real territory. I know it isn’t real, but it works to get me around. [The map is not the territory.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation#.22The_map_is_not_the_territory.22) > [@TATG](#): > > So state your position. I don’t know my position. As mentioned in the OP - **The Hamster King** posted this: > [@My take on God, if anybody cares.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/244): > > The fact that you and I live our lives _as though_ the external world exists does not prove that it does. And I replied with this: > [@My take on God, if anybody cares.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-take-on-god-if-anybody-cares/607372/245): > > Speak for yourself. You and I DO NOT live our lives as though the external world exists. You live your life as though the external world exists. I live my life as though you and other minds live their life _as though_ the external world exists. That is the closest I can get, at least as of now, to stating my position. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > It sounds like you’re trying to say that you don’t believe that the material world exists. Only different consciousnesses. Is that correct? Yes, I don’t believe that the external world exists. > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I’m with Plato. People are just sad abstractions who cannot but fail to measure up to the Divine. Fuck them and the reality they rode in on. Yes. Yes. That’s the spirit! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/56 "2012-05-30T04:45:36Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The map is not the territory. Precisely. But the map makes useful predictions about the territory. It says “Here you’ll find a mountain.” And lo, when I look, there is indeed a mountain there! It’s true that the map leaves out some details and muddles others, but an incomplete, fuzzy picture of reality is better than no picture at all. > [@](#): > > Yes, I don’t believe that the external world exists. If all that exists are minds, and the external world exists only in our imaginations, then why do our fantasies agree in so many details? Why does everyone agree that there’s only one sun in the sky? Why don’t some people imagine two or none? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/57 "2012-05-30T08:40:55Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > [Yes. Yes. Still not working… ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/58 "2012-05-30T09:18:07Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > You and I DO NOT live our lives as though the external world exists. You live your life as though the external world exists. I live my life as though you and other minds live their life as though the external world exists. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe that the external world exists. I think it is important to make a distinction between the two different kinds of claim here. I also have no _belief_ that the external world exists\*, but it still makes sense for me to live my life as though it does. Because for one thing, that helps me make predictions about my subjective reality: whether or not the hot stove is “real”, I know that if I reach my hand out and touch it, I will experience very real pain. Furthermore, even if I knew for sure that this reality is not real, that information in itself would tell me nothing of what action (or inaction) to take. I may as well play by the rules of this game because I know of no other rules. * * * - I can elaborate on this a little. First of all, while “Does the external world exist?” is a common phrasing of the question, I don’t think the question is as unambiguous as it seems. I think we run into trouble with exist and external. If I experience a qualia, then already it exists at one level. And what exactly do we mean by external? I prefer to talk about _interpretations_. The best interpretation I currently have for my experiences is that I am one conscious mind among many in a space-time universe of matter and energy. Now it may be that this universe is, say, a simulation running on a computer. But there’s no evidence to support this hypothesis and it falls to Occam’s. I take the question to be asking “Do you positively assert that the interpretation of your mind being one of many in a space time universe is correct?”. To which my answer is: No, I have no reason to make that assumption. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/59 "2012-05-30T12:18:26Z")
[QUOTE=Kozmik] You and I DO NOT live our lives as though the external world exists. You live your life as though the external world exists. I live my life as though you and other minds live their life as though the external world exists. [/QUOTE] How, exactly, would you _“live your life”_ differently if you started living _“as though the external world exists”_? What, in particular, would change for you? Would you eat more? Drink less? Paint a BEWARE OF DOG sign, to protect your property? Step aside, when it looks like you’re about to be hit by a bus? What? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/60 "2012-05-30T14:03:46Z")
So far we’ve hit both the “Prisoner’s Dilemma” and (at least implied by **Beware of Doug** ) Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave” on this handy list of [7 Phrases That Are Great Signs It’s Time To Stop Talking](http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-phrases-that-are-great-signs-its-time-to-stop-talking/) (see #5). We only need Occam’s Razor and Schoedinger’s Cat to get a Stoner Philosopher’s Bingo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803.md?page=4)