# Does the external world exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803 "2012-05-23T07:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/61 "2012-05-30T15:35:32Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > We only need Occam’s Razor and Schoedinger’s Cat to get a Stoner Philosopher’s Bingo. I mentioned Occam’s. However, it was in the context of making a specific point, rather than vague “makes you think” talk about how we don’t know anything. In fact…I don’t really associate Occam’s with stoners. But people do boil it down differently. IMO the most accurate concise description is: remove any entities/concepts from a hypothesis that have no explanatory power. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/62 "2012-05-30T17:17:09Z")
Schoedinger, WTF? _Schrödinger_. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/63 "2012-05-30T18:02:53Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Still not working… It worked on _The Simpsons_. 😃 > [@Mijin](#): > > I also have no _belief_ that the external world exists\*, but it still makes sense for me to live my life as though it does. I have no belief that the external world exists, but it still makes sense for me to live my life as though other minds\* live their lives as though it does. * * * - I have beliefs about other minds, but it does not make sense for me to live my life as though other minds live their lives as though I\* exist. * * * - Other minds don’t believe in you. So why should you believe in other minds? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/64 "2012-05-30T19:57:15Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > So far we’ve hit both the “Prisoner’s Dilemma” and (at least implied by **Beware of Doug** ) Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave” on this handy list of [7 Phrases That Are Great Signs It’s Time To Stop Talking](http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-phrases-that-are-great-signs-its-time-to-stop-talking/) (see #5). We only need Occam’s Razor and Schoedinger’s Cat to get a Stoner Philosopher’s Bingo. Seems somewhat fallacious to suggest a thread is moribund because people are using technical jargon in it, especially jargon appropriate to the thread. The concepts listed are relevant to the subject. Go and discuss baseball…and don’t use any terms like “innings” or “shortstop.” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/65 "2012-05-30T21:50:15Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > It worked on _The Simpsons_. 😃 > I have no belief that the external world exists, but it still makes sense for me to live my life as though other minds\* live their lives as though it does. > > * * * > > - > > I have beliefs about other minds, but it does not make sense for me to live my life as though other minds live their lives as though I\* exist. > > * * * > > - > > Other minds don’t believe in you. So why should you believe in other minds? You no doubt live your life as though the external world is real. Yes? I don’t understand why you insist on beginning at a couple levels of indirection and won’t face up to that more direct and important point. And have you not seen footnotes before? I used a single one in a single post – I hardly abused the device. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/66 "2012-05-30T22:11:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Seems somewhat fallacious to suggest a thread is moribund because people are using technical jargon in it, especially jargon appropriate to the thread. The concepts listed are relevant to the subject. > > Go and discuss baseball…and don’t use any terms like “innings” or “shortstop.” Using is to actually _get_ somewhere is fine, of course, but **Beware of Doug** simply sending a drive-by shout out to Plato (keepin’ it old school!) and **Kozmik** awarding him a high-five is as about meaningful as Radar O’Reilly stroking his chin and sighing “ah, Bach!” And if you don’t get what I mean, I’m-a bash you with Wittgenstein’s poker, yo! ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/67 "2012-05-31T05:15:57Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What about an in-between notion: the external world exists, and the internal world is an imperfect model of it. > > I’m driving around, using a map, because I can’t truly know the territory. But the map is good enough. It is built up, over time, from many observations of the real territory. I know it isn’t real, but it works to get me around. > > I can never know you; but I can relate, fairly well, to the picture of you that I carry in my mind. It is at least good enough for us to have a conversation in a philosophy thread in a debate forum… If you crumple up this map and throw it on the ground, [some point](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brouwer%27s_fixed_point_theorem) will map itself to itself. So you will be forced to resolve: is the map different then the territory (how?), or is it the same (how?). Imperfection implies a measure of perfection—what is the measure? Some point will be the metaphor for what it is. How? ---
**Author:** ![Rhaegar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Rhaegar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhaegar)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/68 "2012-05-31T05:31:21Z")
Pick the red pill Neo. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/69 "2012-05-31T05:36:05Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t understand why you insist on beginning at a couple levels of indirection and won’t face up to that more direct and important point. Which is… > [@Mijin](#): > > And have you not seen footnotes before? I used a single one in a single post – I hardly abused the device. Forget footnotes. Just consider my three points: I have no belief that the external world exists, but it still makes sense for me to live my life as though other minds live their lives as though it does. I have beliefs about other minds, but it does not make sense for me to live my life as though other minds live their lives as though I exist. Other minds don’t believe in you. So why should you believe in other minds? The second point is a very important point. It goes without saying that \*some \*other minds live their lives as though I exist. For example, family members and co-workers. However, it does not follow that _all_ other minds live their lives as though I exist. For example, a billion people in China and a billion people in India. The third point may be even more important and it has an intriguing question. Other minds believe in the external world. As **Beware of Doug** wrote, “Fuck them and the reality they rode in on.” What would it mean if other minds did not believe in the external world and instead believed in you? The first point is no less important. However, it is written out in a way that seems complicated. Simply put, other minds live their lives as though the external world exists and, therefore, even though I do not believe in the external world, the external world makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/70 "2012-05-31T10:41:50Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The second point is a very important point. It goes without saying that \*some \*other minds live their lives as though I exist. For example, family members and co-workers. However, it does not follow that _all_ other minds live their lives as though I exist. For example, a billion people in China and a billion people in India. The third point may be even more important and it has an intriguing question. Other minds believe in the external world. As **Beware of Doug** wrote, “Fuck them and the reality they rode in on.” What would it mean if other minds did not believe in the external world and instead believed in you? The first point is no less important. However, it is written out in a way that seems complicated. Simply put, other minds live their lives as though the external world exists and, therefore, even though I do not believe in the external world, the external world makes sense. I think you’re tying yourself in knots by beginning at several levels of indirection – do I believe that you believe that I believe… Just begin with what you believe. And the fact that you keep mentioning what other minds believe implies that you yourself do believe in the existence of an external reality. It may not be the kind of external reality we _see_ – perhaps we’re all jacked into the matrix, say. But for other minds to exist that already means there is something external to you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/71 "2012-05-31T13:18:41Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Which is… > > Forget footnotes. Just consider my three points: > > I have no belief that the external world exists, but it still makes sense for me to live my life as though other minds live their lives as though it does. How do you live your life when no other minds seem to be around? When you’re alone in a house, do you live your life as though the microwave oven can heat up the cold food in the refrigerator? As though you can’t walk through solid objects in general or the walls in particular, but an open doorway is fair game? As though water will drain out of the bathtub if you pull the plug? As though that’s air you’re breathing? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/72 "2012-05-31T14:34:04Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Which is… > > Forget footnotes. Just consider my three points: > > I have no belief that the external world exists, but it still makes sense for me to live my life as though other minds live their lives as though it does. If the external world does not exist, what makes you think other minds exist? > [@Kozmik](#): > > I have beliefs about other minds, but it does not make sense for me to live my life as though other minds live their lives as though I exist. Why do you have “beliefs about other minds”? Why does it not make sense to live that way? > [@Kozmik](#): > > Other minds don’t believe in you. So why should you believe in other minds? Why do you think “other minds don’t believe in you”? Why wouldn’t they? My mind believes that there’s an external entity calling itself **Kozmik** who is essentially typing gibberish, regardless of whether he believes in my mind or not. Next theory? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/73 "2012-05-31T20:02:19Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > If you crumple up this map and throw it on the ground, [some point](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brouwer%27s_fixed_point_theorem) will map itself to itself. So you will be forced to resolve: is the map different then the territory (how?), or is it the same (how?). Imperfection implies a measure of perfection—what is the measure? Some point will be the metaphor for what it is. How? Pointless: if you crumple the map up in a different way, a different point will correspond to reality. All you seem to be demonstrating is that no map can ever be totally wrong. And even that fails, if I’m allowed to tear the map apart, rather than merely crumpling it up. It’s a nifty mathematical note, but has no relevance to the “map” of perceived reality and its relationship to that (disputed) reality. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/74 "2012-06-01T02:04:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It’s a nifty mathematical note, but has no relevance to the “map” of perceived reality and its relationship to that (disputed) reality. It does for someone who wishes the map and territory to be wholly distinct, so to speak. You said, “What about an in-between notion: the external world exists, and the internal world is an imperfect model of it.” But this isn’t really a third way, because we’re not talking about real maps—presumably we’re talking about brain states or something somehow representing (imperfectly?) the external world. And it was brought about by my saying that that there’s probably just this one thing (mind, matter). So an unremovable fixed point is metaphorically quite relevant, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/75 "2012-06-01T21:59:58Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > It does for someone who wishes the map and territory to be wholly distinct, so to speak. You said, “What about an in-between notion: the external world exists, and the internal world is an imperfect model of it.” But this isn’t really a third way, because we’re not talking about real maps—presumably we’re talking about brain states or something somehow representing (imperfectly?) the external world. And it was brought about by my saying that that there’s probably just this one thing (mind, matter). So an unremovable fixed point is metaphorically quite relevant, don’t you think? Um… I guess I’m not following you… I’m not being deliberately dense; I just don’t get what you’re saying… I do admit that the idea that we have a mental map of the real world isn’t actually a “third way.” It isn’t really a new idea, separate from realism and from idealism. I mostly favor it because it threads a narrow course between the Scylla (no, not the Doper!) and Charybdis. It avoids the worst of both realism and idealism. And it seems to describe the actual working situation. For instance, it allows for us to be deceived by optical illusions, memory lapses, simple mistakes of cognition, and so on – without going as far as to declare that “my reality is different from yours.” i.e., if I sit down and insist that the capital of Nevada is Reno, few people going to say, “Well, Trinopus just lives in a different reality than you do.” Instead, the much more workable explanation is, “Well, that’s just wrong. Look it up in an Atlas.” (I have actually met people who say that their own reality – while under the influence of drugs, for instance – is “every bit as real” as our consensus reality. But our consensus reality has one really big advantage over their drug-reality: we can reach a consensus. We can pretty much agree that Reno isn’t the capital of Nevada.) If I’m kinda talking past you, I apologize. My reality is, I do confess, pretty commonplace. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/76 "2012-06-02T05:22:38Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > [The map is not the territory.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation#.22The_map_is_not_the_territory.22) In case you, **Kozmik** , or anyone else for that matter, missed the point of my quoting the _jnani_, let’s consider a quote from your cite: > [@](#): > > Korzybski’s dictum “the map is not the territory” is also cited as an underlying principle used in neuro-linguistic programming, where it is used to signify that individual people in fact do not\*\* in general\*\* have access to absolute knowledge of reality, but in fact only have access to a set of beliefs they have built up over time, about reality. So it is considered important to be aware that people’s beliefs about reality and their awareness of things (the “map”) are not reality itself or everything they could be aware of (“the territory”). The originators of NLP have been explicit that they owe this insight to General semantics. bolding mine The _jnani_ claims to have access to absolute knowledge of (or immanent experience of) reality itself, and claims to teach you how to get that for yourself. If you are having issues with the existence of the external world and other minds &etc., I thought you might be interested in this perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/77 "2012-06-02T05:36:31Z")
The external World is a construct made up of the ideas, actions and beliefs of those involved. Hence it is, so to speak, an illusion in that it does not have an independent existence. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/78 "2012-06-02T12:51:21Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Why do you think “other minds don’t believe in you”? Why wouldn’t they? Why would they? Why _should_ they? Other minds don’t believe, among other things, that I am their saviour. Other minds don’t believe, perhaps, that there is someone who is going down a certain path in life. That someone has a certain view of _meaning_. That someone has a certain personality. As Adam Duritz sang in the song, Mr. Jones: Believe in me Help me believe in anything I want to be someone who believes ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803/79 "2012-06-02T16:50:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And it seems to describe the actual working situation. For instance, it allows for us to be deceived by optical illusions, memory lapses, simple mistakes of cognition, and so on – without going as far as to declare that “my reality is different from yours.” But I don’t think the typical idealist would suggest that reality is _mind-dependent_ in that way. You could look at it as a question of knowledge, for instance: mind-independent knowledge is impossible. This is not a binary choice, for what is left after we cast aside mind-independence is mind-correlative _and_ mind-dependent. We needn’t go so far, as you say, to suggest that reality is different for different minds. This position has been criticized as being merely tautological (see [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism)). I am not sure I agree with that but who am I to disagree with Bertrand Russel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-external-world-exist/622803.md?page=3)