# Does the fact that so many people believe in God mean anything? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177 "2013-03-17T15:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/81 "2013-03-18T18:46:52Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > All I’m saying is that the true understanding of our universe is beyond our grasp which implies faith. This is gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/82 "2013-03-18T18:48:50Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Good point. I can’t say I’ve ever considered Neverland or Oz, or really anything else besides my POV. Rather closed minded of you, wouldn’t you say? Have you considered how you should live your life if this is truly it? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/83 "2013-03-18T18:54:23Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Good point. I can’t say I’ve ever considered Neverland or Oz, or really anything else besides my POV. “[F]rom here that looks like a bucket of water,” he said, pointing to a bucket of water; “but from an ant’s point of view it’s a vast ocean, from an elephant’s just a cool drink, and to a fish, of course, it’s home. So, you see, the way you see things depends a great deal on where you look at them from.” -The Phantom Tollbooth. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/84 "2013-03-18T19:14:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you considered how you should live your life if this is truly it? “Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.” ``` - Paul Gauguin ``` ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/85 "2013-03-18T19:24:47Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Well logically we cannot fully understand concepts like infinity due to many glaring contradictions. Yet, there it is smacking us right in the face. We have the Big Bang theory, but what came before that? That question never ends. I’m not trying to doubt science here, as it’s the only way well ever get anywhere. I’m just being realistic. **Alan Smithee** , I hope that answers your question too. Again, argument from ignorance. You’re saying that you don’t understand these things, so you don’t think other people can either, so obviously they can’t be understood. And that’s wrong. What’s not to understand about infinity? Mathematicians deal with infinity all the time. Yes we have the Big Bang Theory, and we don’t know what came before that, but that doesn’t mean we’ll never know. You’re unhappy with not knowing everything, and so you substitute ‘faith’ or whatever in place of knowledge. And it doesn’t go there. > [@](#): > > FTR, I only believe in the soul and that what you do in this life matters in some way. But I consistently see that people discredit faith, and many of their points are valid. But I’m curious, what does science tell us about faith? I get that if I’m making the claim that I have “faith” in my soul, that I should be the one to back that up. Ill freely admit that I can’t. Then why believe in it? If you can’t even justify the belief to yourself, why bother with it at all? > [@](#): > > What can you show me, by the way of the scientific method, that faith is in fact false? This doesn’t make a lot of sense, lemmie try and parse it. ‘Faith’ isn’t true or false, it depends on what is taken on faith, and why. If you were to use the scientific method on ‘faith’, I would assume you would be testing the assertions that are made in faith, ie: ‘god exists’. This is a pretty easy one, as we have no objective evidence of his existence, it should be obvious that the conclusion would be ‘god doesnt exist’. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/86 "2013-03-18T19:38:47Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Not sure I understand the experiment. How are there M&M’s on a card? Or how is the experiment similar/different than the one I posted? Sorry, here it is in more detail. You have a jar of M&Ms (we used jelly beans) and distribute cards to have people write their guesses on. Half of them say 1. Is there more than 10 jelly beans in the jar? Y N 2. Guess the number of jelly beans and the other half say 1. Are there fewer than 10,000 jelly beans in the jar 2. Guess the number of jelly beans What you find is that the people who get the first card estimate much lower than the people who get the second card. What happens is that your mind “anchors” to the first number, and that affects your guess. The anchoring number doesn’t even have to be related to the guess - this has been done asking people if the average temperature in Chicago is more or less than 700 degrees F. So if you want to ask your boss for a raise, start the conversation with something about the number of stars in the galaxy, so you can anchor him to a big number. My point is that the estimates people do can be easily manipulated. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/87 "2013-03-18T19:47:04Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > This is true. But what would you say about the “placebo effect?” People take a sugar pill and get better. Pure faith. This is what I’m talking about when I’m asking what studies have been done to test faith. Were you aware that in some cases placebos work even better if you charge people a lot for them? The brain and body are connected - nothing supernatural about that - and it is hardly surprising that you can influence the brain and thus the body. I was once hooked up to a heart monitor before a procedure, and while waiting for them to come back into the room was able to lower my heart rate just by concentrating. I have no meditation experience. No faith required in placebos - you can test them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/88 "2013-03-18T19:54:52Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I already said I can’t. All I’m saying is that the true understanding of our universe is beyond our grasp which implies faith. Otherwise, there should be “nothing.” However that works. How does that imply nothing? The universe was here before there was anyone to understand it. Atoms were here before anyone understood them either. > [@](#): > > Case in point, can anyone prove that I’m a real, living, breathing, conscious being and not just a figment of their imagination? According to my understanding, no it can’t be done. But, in reality, here I am. You can measure me from head-to-toe, and gather as much evidence as possible. But, the logic still conflicts. Why do I need to prove it? I can provisionally accept that you exist in part because I’m aware of no AIs which can write as well as you do yet, and because there would be no reason for them to come here. That’s not faith at all since I can be easily proven wrong. Now if you latch on to a Notre Dame footballer and suddenly die on the other hand … ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/89 "2013-03-18T20:21:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Rather closed minded of you, wouldn’t you say? Have you considered how you should live your life if this is truly it? Well, I guess. If anything, I think reincarnation is the most likely possibility. I think that my soul carries on two different ways. I think that every single impression I make is carried on by those who are effected. So, in this exchange, a piece of your soul is carried by me and you carry a piece of mine. Also, I think that every being has its own soul. The physical body acts much like a vessel and the soul is it’s animating force. So in a way we are all connected, but seperate at the same time. All things considered, I don’t see how my beliefs affect my conduct in this life. ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/90 "2013-03-18T20:22:23Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Wisdom of crowds really only works in very narrowly defined circumstances: when estimating something in such a way that errors are evenly distributed, and even then only provided all guesses are statistically independent. In the M&M case, it’s roughly as likely to over- as it is to underestimate; thus, given the large sample size, the error tends to even out. But if there is some systematic bias, i.e. if people would for some reason preferentially overestimate, the effect vanishes; likewise if later guesses are influenced by earlier ones (i.e. are not statistically independent). Thus, there is no actual ‘wisdom’ in crowds: rather, the effect derives itself from the fact that all members are equally ignorant, and simple statistics. > > The question of the existence of a god thus is not one for which ‘majority opinion’ is a good signpost: first of all, it’s just not the kind of question that benefits from statistics. God’s existence is not some quantity to estimate; he either exists, or not. Second, it’s very likely that people’s opinions are systematically biased in this case: most people will retain the faith they have been brought up with. Third, for the same reason, people’s ‘guesses’ won’t be uncorrelated: in fact, your social environment and history constrains your guess very tightly; you will likely guess the same way your peers do. > > So, there’s really no good reason this video ought to give you pause. > > But even without the video, the answer is no: even ignoring the differences between different religions (or within them), it’s simply the case that for most of history, most of the people have been wrong about most of what they believed. So, what people believe is not an especially good indicator of what is the case (this is sometimes called ‘pessimistic meta-induction’, which I just mention because it’s fun to write/say). He shoots, he scores! Nailed it! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/91 "2013-03-18T20:30:18Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > If anything, I think reincarnation is the most likely possibility.. And what evidence leads you to believe this? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/92 "2013-03-18T20:31:44Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > If anything, I think reincarnation is the most likely possibility. I think that my soul carries on two different ways. I think that every single impression I make is carried on by those who are effected. So, in this exchange, a piece of your soul is carried by me and you carry a piece of mine. > > Also, I think that every being has its own soul. The physical body acts much like a vessel and the soul is it’s animating force. > > So in a way we are all connected, but seperate at the same time. Why? What leads you to believe any of this is true beyond a very generic “Well, it’s a nice thought, isn’t it?” feeling? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/93 "2013-03-18T20:49:47Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > … All I’m saying is that the true understanding of our universe is beyond our grasp which implies faith. … > [@Acsenray](#): > > This is gibberish. Exactly. This claim makes no sense whatsoever. I will grant that there are things that exist where the numbers of faithful DO matter, to us humans, though not to the universe. For instance, Hitler. If only 10 people had faith in what he said, he’d probably have ended up with them in an asylum. Another example is Jesus (assuming he was an actual human being). Since millions of people have followed his teachings for thousands of years, the world, in terms of culture and society, is different from what it otherwise would have been. But that says absolutely nothing about whether Jesus was indeed a god. All it can be said to legitimately mean is that a lot of people think Jesus had good ideas worth following. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/94 "2013-03-18T20:52:15Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > All I’m saying is that the true understanding of our universe is beyond our grasp which implies faith. This is what I do not understand. Why would you say that statement is true? What makes you believe it? I just don’t see any connection between the two. Why should a lack of total understanding of all aspects of the universe imply faith? What does that even mean? The wording seems a little odd: **ignorance = faith ?** (to oversimplify it a bit) Faith in what? The existence of ignorance? I have a deep faith that ignorance definitely exists. I would lose that faith however, if it could be shown by evidence that ignorance does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![MsBatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@MsBatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsBatt)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/95 "2013-03-18T22:16:47Z")
And when you say that you think every being has a soul, does that include the animals? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/96 "2013-03-18T22:21:54Z")
What sort of life does a black widow spider have to lead to get reincarnated to a higher species? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/97 "2013-03-19T00:07:11Z")
Well, like I’ve said there is no hard evidence. All we can do is logically come to a conclusion. For example, Descartes used “I think, therefore I am.” I think that’s standing on pretty solid ground. In my view, the question “where did everything come from?” never ends. It seems to make no sense, because it implies that the universe was always here. But, _ **how** _ was it always here? Something doesn’t come from nothing. I don’t see how anyone can say we’re ever going to figure this out. Furthermore, you would think that “nothingness” would be the default option. No matter, space, or time to speak of. This doesn’t beg the question of where did this “nothingness” come from in the first place? Nothing doesn’t come from something. Nothing just is. So, if I am to assume that the universe will forever remain an irrational mystery, faith is the only logical choice. Where you place your faith is up to you. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/98 "2013-03-19T00:09:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What sort of life does a black widow spider have to lead to get reincarnated to a higher species? Well, thats just ridiculous! Black widow spiders do not understand morality. And I’m not a black widow spider so how am I supposed to be able to tell you that? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/99 "2013-03-19T00:12:07Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > … > > So, if I am to assume that the universe will forever remain an irrational mystery, faith is the only logical choice. Where you place your faith is up to you. Irrational?? If you define rationality as predictable and following a particular set of rules, the universe is FAR more rational than than, say, human thought processes and judgement. It’s just that we don’t understand all the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/100 "2013-03-19T00:13:04Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > In my view, the question “where did everything come from?” never ends. It seems to make no sense, because it implies that the universe was always here. No, it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > Something doesn’t come from nothing. That may not be the case. > [@](#): > > So, if I am to assume that the universe will forever remain an irrational mystery, faith is the only logical choice. Where you place your faith is up to you. It seems like you’re abandoning the god thing, then. The problem with this line of thinking is that gods don’t address the mystery. They just kick the can down the road one step. If you assume no gods, the question is ‘why is there anything?’ And if you answer ‘a god did it,’ the question becomes ‘why is there a god, then?’ And there’s no answer to that unless you try to rely on some dictionary game-playing like ‘nothing can come from nothing except a god, which can do those things because it’s god.’ It’s no more satisfying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177.md?page=6)