# Does the fact that so many people believe in God mean anything? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177 "2013-03-17T15:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/101 "2013-03-19T00:24:57Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Well, like I’ve said there is no hard evidence. All we can do is logically come to a conclusion. For example, Descartes used “I think, therefore I am.” I think that’s standing on pretty solid ground. > > In my view, the question “where did everything come from?” never ends. It seems to make no sense, because it implies that the universe was always here. But, _ **how** _ was it always here? Something doesn’t come from nothing. I don’t see how anyone can say we’re ever going to figure this out. > > Furthermore, you would think that “nothingness” would be the default option. No matter, space, or time to speak of. This doesn’t beg the question of where did this “nothingness” come from in the first place? Nothing doesn’t come from something. Nothing just is. > > So, if I am to assume that the universe will forever remain an irrational mystery, faith is the only logical choice. Where you place your faith is up to you. Well, You get the QI klaxon horn 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/embed/no-Aiwl83EU?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque What you have missed is that cosmologists and other experts (and only in the UK one could find a comedian that had a degree in quantum mechanics, that is Ben Miller explaining why there is also no such thing as nothing in physics) are concluding that there is no such thing as nothing. > **[QI: Series F, Episode 9 - The Future - British Comedy Guide](https://www.comedy.co.uk/tv/qi/episodes/6/9/)** > > A guide to The Future, Episode 9 from Series F of QI. > [@](#): > > Ben goes onto explain that physics explains that nothing cannot exist, because of the creation and destruction of particles, as well as what some people believe to be the Higgs field, which gives elementary particles mass. This is what the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN is trying to prove the existence of. So no, faith is not the only logical choice. As mentioned before I’m agnostic, and for the remaining faith I have I recognize that it does not depend on logic or science, anyone that is aware on how the constant progression of how science has explained or controlled many of the old time religion claims that “would be always impossible” (even a kid can read all of the book of Job’s dares of God and have an answer) should not rely on concrete evidence to support positions of faith. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/102 "2013-03-19T01:27:46Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Well, thats just ridiculous! Black widow spiders do not understand morality. And I’m not a black widow spider so how am I supposed to be able to tell you that? What sort of animals _do_ understand morality, then? Or do you believe that reincarnation is strictly a “human-to-human” thing? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/103 "2013-03-19T01:41:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Yes, it does. > [@Marley23](#): > > It seems like you’re abandoning the god thing, then. The problem with this line of thinking is that gods don’t address the mystery. They just kick the can down the road one step. If you assume no gods, the question is ‘why is there anything?’ And if you answer ‘a god did it,’ the question becomes ‘why is there a god, then?’ And there’s no answer to that unless you try to rely on some dictionary game-playing like ‘nothing can come from nothing except a god, which can do those things because it’s god.’ It’s no more satisfying. Yes, it does come off as a meaningless concept. That does not tell the whole story though. Through the lens of evolution, we probably are line in step with where we should be. Real animals do not have morals or logic and so they lead a short, brutal life. But from the smallest animal to us, the humans, life tends to objectifiably get better. I’m sure there are species far beyond us. The point is that we are asking these questions for a reason. If I believe in a soul, why shouldn’t it follow the laws of evolution? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/104 "2013-03-19T01:44:01Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Yes, it does come off as a meaningless concept. That does not tell the whole story though. Through the lens of evolution, we probably are line in step with where we should be. Real animals do not have morals or logic and so they lead a short, brutal life. But from the smallest animal to us, the humans, life tends to objectifiably get better. I’m sure there are species far beyond us. The point is that we are asking these questions for a reason. If I believe in a soul, why shouldn’t it follow the laws of evolution? No, no, no, a thousand times no. Evolution is not goal or purpose driven. There is no law of evolution that requires anything to get “better,” whether objectively or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/105 "2013-03-19T01:58:05Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Yes, it does. Very convincing. I guess I have no choice but to be convinced by this rhetorical question posing as an argument. > [@](#): > > Through the lens of evolution, we probably are line in step with where we should be. ‘Where we should be’ what? Do you mean in some ethical sense? That has nothing to do with evolution. > [@](#): > > But from the smallest animal to us, the humans, life tends to objectifiably get better. How so? Even if it’s true, what would this have to do with anything? > [@](#): > > If I believe in a soul, why shouldn’t it follow the laws of evolution? When did we start talking about souls? And what does that have to do with evolution? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/106 "2013-03-19T02:16:03Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Yes, it does. You still get the klaxon. > [@panaccione](#): > > Yes, it does come off as a meaningless concept. That does not tell the whole story though. Through the lens of evolution, we probably are line in step with where we should be. Real animals do not have morals or logic and so they lead a short, brutal life. But from the smallest animal to us, the humans, life tends to objectifiably get better. I’m sure there are species far beyond us. The point is that we are asking these questions for a reason. If I believe in a soul, why shouldn’t it follow the laws of evolution? Now, if there are species far beyond us, and souls also evolve, then we get to one point I have mentioned before, what makes then many that think in the traditional god that we are the kings of creation to be correct? When the evidence points to the possibility that we are only a step towards what god was really intending all along? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/107 "2013-03-19T03:43:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, it doesn’t. About as good as yours. Besides, my faith tells me differently. I’m sure the Higgs Boson will be an amazing discovery. But why would it change things? No matter what we find the question is always going to be “where did that come from?” Knowing this, I cannot go against my gut instinct that tells me I am different from the objective planet that I live on. I cannot even fathom what I experience in my own life. But, I know it’s real. All I can do is look around at everything and tell whether it’s living or not. The couch that I am sitting on surely has no soul. [We’re still made up of the same fundamental particles.](http://www.universeadventure.org/eras/era2-particles.htm) How does that work? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/108 "2013-03-19T03:58:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What sort of animals _do_ understand morality, then? Or do you believe that reincarnation is strictly a “human-to-human” thing? Again, I can’t claim to know the mind of an animal. I guess all we can do is test the physical function of the animal. Even if it’s my own theory, I don’t have all the answers. Reincarnation is a far reaching, vague topic which has no basis in anything. As a human being, I think it’s dependent on my actions in this life. Whether they’re good or bad has meaning. I really can’t say much else about it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/109 "2013-03-19T04:19:09Z")
So what this thread boils down to is that because you and so many other people believe in a soul and some kind of live after death and some kind of supreme being, your beliefs make it true, or more likely to be true, even though it’s all based on “gut feelings”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/110 "2013-03-19T04:22:01Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > About as good as yours. Besides, my faith tells me differently. > > I’m sure the Higgs Boson will be an amazing discovery. But why would it change things? No matter what we find the question is always going to be “where did that come from?” And of course I wanted to see if there was some interest in there, there is agreement that the Higgs Boson was indeed discovered, and for now it confirms that indeed it is not correct to claim that thee is no such thing as “nothing” > [@panaccione](#): > > Knowing this, I cannot go against my gut instinct that tells me I am different from the objective planet that I live on. I cannot even fathom what I experience in my own life. But, I know it’s real. All I can do is look around at everything and tell whether it’s living or not. The couch that I am sitting on surely has no soul. [We’re still made up of the same fundamental particles.](http://www.universeadventure.org/eras/era2-particles.htm) How does that work? “For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken Point being that what I have seen is that the answers to questions like that are complex but they do exist, going for the easy gut instinct ones is comforting, but my experience has showed me that the easy answers leads to others controlling your decisions and usually the result is to prevent progress. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/111 "2013-03-19T04:53:32Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > So what this thread boils down to is that because you and so many other people believe in a soul and some kind of live after death and some kind of supreme being, your beliefs make it true, or more likely to be true, even though it’s all based on “gut feelings”. Well, no. People are free think how they want and even if everybody were to believe in the “soul,” it would not provide sufficient evidence to establish the fact. However, this discredits consensus in no way and we should not forget the importance of it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/112 "2013-03-19T04:56:15Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Well, no. People are free think how they want and even if everybody were to believe in the “soul,” it would not provide sufficient evidence to establish the fact. However, this discredits consensus in no way and we should not forget the importance of it. Uh, no, there is educated and expert consensus and then there is the one based on gut feelings and many times involved in ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/113 "2013-03-19T04:59:06Z")
Consensus? Do you even know what that means? Way to move goalposts. WTF was the point of your OP question, then? Consensus has no credit. It’s value consists of humans agreeing with certain concepts or actions. It has no meaning outside of those involved in the consent. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/114 "2013-03-19T07:21:13Z")
I’m waiting to hear what’s so difficult about infinity. I don’t see anything particularly hard about it. With a little study, I’m quite confident I could explain cogently the difference between alef-null and alef-one and why the slope of a vertical line is undefined rather than infinity. If you haven’t studied those things, then it’s obvious you haven’t even _tried_ to understand infinity, so you have no idea whether you could if you tried or not. I suspect what you mean when you say that you can’t understand infinity is actually nothing more than that you can’t _imagine_ infinity, that is to say, that you can’t imagine an infinite number of something. That’s not important, though. I can’t imagine thirty of something. I doubt you can either. I can imagine a cluster of about thirty pebbles or hyenas or such, but I can’t image precisely thirty distinct individual pebbles. I have, of course, _seen_ thirty of many different objects, but I might very well never have seen exactly 82,326,997,966 of anything, a number which I am also completely incapable of visualizing as a collection of objects, but feel quite certain exists and is within my understanding. Compared the that number, infinity is much more easy to imagine in fact, especially since I can easily conceive of a line made up of infinitely many discrete points. Like I said, I’m not a mathematician. Not by a long shot. I haven’t the vaguest idea what the boundaries of our mathematical knowledge are or what is being accomplished in expanding them. I have only the vaguest of ideas about the boundaries of our physical knowledge are or about how close we are to a so-called “theory of everything.” I do know enough to avoid speculating on what such a theory would actually compass or what may lie beyond our grasp. You pretty clearly have studied these things even less than I have, but you apparently feel comfortable asserting absolute limits on such things. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/115 "2013-03-19T11:32:53Z")
The OP seems to have no trouble imagining and having faith in an infinite god. So it’s not infinity that the OP is having trouble defining. It’s the nature of that infinity. An infinite god is okay, as are infinite souls. But an infinite universe (whatever that may mean) is beyond comprehension. Also, claiming that faith is the only logical conclusion in the face of a complex and possibly infinite universe is just a Hail Mary pass. Faith is the opposite of a logical conclusion but it gives the OP a sense of comfort and a way of dealing with questions to which the answer is, “We don’t know (yet)”, or worse, “After death is entropy”. The OP doesn’t need a lesson in mathematics, or physics, or critical thinking. What the OP needs is to stop defining faith as the “logical” conclusion to the unknown (or even the unknowable). I understand the temptation to express one’s beliefs as being justified by some formal, well thought out process that can be laid out in logical terms. But that’s simply not how people come to that conclusion, despite the countless attempts to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/116 "2013-03-19T18:05:50Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > … > > In essence, life is a big mystery and the only thing that tells us it’s real is from our experiences. But what of the experience that so many people claim to have when they say they believe on god? Sure, it cannot be measured, but why should we dismiss it out of hand? > > [This VSauce video](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4e_kz79tjb8) is what gives me pause. Towards the end, they discuss an experiment where people are asked to guess the amount of M&M’S in a bottle. No one actually got the answer right, but the groups median answer was within 5. It’s a concept they refer to as “Wisdom of the Crowds.” Now, use that as an analogy to a belief in God. There have been many good answers here, but I think something Isaac Asimov once wrote is apt. When a “true believer” asked him how and why he could accept what a certain famed researcher said about the atom, but reject out of hand his convictions about the supernatural (ghosts, in particular, IIRC) Asimov unhesitating pointed out that the researcher had “nothing to gain” from the particular results his research showed him, but everything to gain from a belief in the supernatural (which included the implication of spiritual immortality). No one really cares about a particular guess at the number of items in a transparent container (as opposed to happening to be exactly right, or closest to it, and thus winning, if there is a prize). I can easily see an individual picking a number and then adjusting it upward or downward upon reconsideration. The numbers are all emotionally neutral to the participants. So there is where the comparison breaks down. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/117 "2013-03-19T19:37:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The OP seems to have no trouble imagining and having faith in an infinite god. So it’s not infinity that the OP is having trouble defining. It’s the nature of that infinity. An infinite god is okay, as are infinite souls. But an infinite universe (whatever that may mean) is beyond comprehension. I agree with this. I guess it makes no difference if you use god or souls because any supernatural claim is just going to confuse the issue. The universe exists with or without these beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/118 "2013-03-19T19:38:17Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I’m waiting to hear what’s so difficult about infinity . . . It can’t exist. It is a mathematical abstract, and has no reality of its own. In the cosmos we really live in, God cannot have “infinite power.” What would that even mean? The energy of 10^900 supernovae? That isn’t infinite. The power of 10^googleplex supernovae? Still not infinite. Once you exceed the total energy of the entire known cosmos by a large (infinite!) factor, you’ve really stopped saying anything meaningful in any possible way. (This, by the way, doesn’t matter a whole lot, as a mere pittance of a number – like 10^200 – is pretty much sufficient for any given real-world purpose. There are finite numbers which are practically indistinguishable from “infinite” numbers. If somebody shoots you with two .38 rounds, that’s worse than one, but if someone shoots you with a billion and one .38 rounds, is that really any worse than a mere billion?) The absurd claim of “infinite” qualities for God was a childish attempt to one-up the Pythagoreans. Why not take the next step and say that God is “transfinite” or “metafinite” or some other theological mumblety-meme? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/119 "2013-03-19T19:41:05Z")
[DarkMatter2525](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODetOE6cbbc) does a good job on this concept. **(Warning: NSFW)** ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/120 "2013-03-19T19:51:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It can’t exist. It is a mathematical abstract, and has no reality of its own. > > In the cosmos we really live in, God cannot have “infinite power.” What would that even mean? The energy of 10^900 supernovae? That isn’t infinite. The power of 10^googleplex supernovae? Still not infinite. Once you exceed the total energy of the entire known cosmos by a large (infinite!) factor, you’ve really stopped saying anything meaningful in any possible way. Why should god be constrained by the cosmos we live in? If it’s his cosmos then it’s his rules. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177.md?page=7)