# Does the fact that so many people believe in God mean anything? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177 "2013-03-17T15:55:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/121 "2013-03-19T20:06:23Z")
This is a good one too. [Putting faith in it’s place.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo) ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/122 "2013-03-19T20:13:04Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It can’t exist. It is a mathematical abstract, and has no reality of its own. Just like the number “two.” And all the numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/123 "2013-03-19T20:24:41Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > This is a good one too. [Putting faith in it’s place.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo) That little video could replace any number of religious-themed threads we’ve had here over the years, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/124 "2013-03-19T20:54:20Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > … The universe exists with or without these beliefs. So what is the point of your OP? Let me remind you of your title question – > [@](#): > > Does the fact that so many people believe in God mean anything? It means something to them. It means something to the people they influence. Nothing else. The universe exists with or without them. God exists or doesn’t (which is my opinion, equally valueless in the question of whether a god exists) with or without their opinions or beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/125 "2013-03-19T21:42:56Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > This is false. Just because something is infinite does not mean that “all possibilities exist in it”, and just because something is possible doesn’t mean it’s “certain to happen”. > > Roll a six-side die. The odds of a six coming up are 1 in 6. Roll it twice, the odds are 1 in 3. Roll it an infinite number of times, and the odds of seeing a six are really, really high, _but they’re not 100%_. There’s a tiny chance that a six will never appear. Now imagine a long sequence of digits between 1 and 6. Any sequence is possible, but it’s easy to imagine really long sequences that are unlikely to occur (like inifinity - 1 sixes in a row). > > Further, an infinite universe does not even mean that all possibilities exist. The set of even numbers is infinite in size, and doesn’t contain a 3. Right idea, wrong example. Your example is precisely the kind where if you roll an infinite number of times, the probability is exactly 1 that you’ll roll any given number (or any given finite sequence of numbers). Hopefully Thudlowe’s links in post #11 can help you sort this out. Back to the OP. The fact that anything exists at all is fundamentally inexplicable. Many physicists believe that they can someday prove that the laws of this universe are the only possible (non-contradictory) ones. Others believe that all possibilities exist (the multiverse thing). Most just don’t know, but are sure we’ll learn more as we go. In any case, positing God doesn’t resolve the question, it just begs more questions. But it makes sense that you find these questions perplexing. IMHO, only a fool doesn’t. Some of us can live with the question unanswered; others feel a need to fill the gap with something. What does the belief in God say? IMHO, it says more about people than it does about God. In particular, many Christians believe in eternal damnation. What does that say about them? It says that they’re either incredibly, disproportionately vengeful, or that they don’t understand much about math and the nature of eternity/infinity. For any finite wrong, any infinite punishment is infinitely disproportionate. Since a lot of people I respect and love hold this belief, I tend to assume the latter. If I believed there was a God who worked this way, I’d try my best to pretend to worship Him to save my soul, but I doubt I’d be fooling anyone. Even ignoring the eternity issue, I have a hard time respecting the belief that torment is the appropriate response to disbelief. The best argument of believers is that if one opens one’s heart to God, one will find Him. I tried seriously, honestly, and hopefully. It failed, so I find that argument valid but not sound. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/126 "2013-03-19T23:19:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That little video could replace any number of religious-themed threads we’ve had here over the years, in my opinion. So does that mean I won the thread? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/127 "2013-03-19T23:21:31Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > So does that mean I won the thread? 🙂 At this point I’m kind of wondering what the thread is about. Although some people would consider that a victory. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/128 "2013-03-19T23:23:05Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > So does that mean I won the thread? 🙂 Well you made the winning touchdown, but it was in your own endzone. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/129 "2013-03-20T04:11:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Why should god be constrained by the cosmos we live in? If it’s his cosmos then it’s his rules. Cool. So God can break any rule we may come up with. Like, he can exist without existing. He can annihilate himself and then come back again. He can even annihilate himself and not come back again! Wow! That’s power. In fact, I suggest he did exactly that. Oops… > [@CurtC](#): > > Just like the number “two.” And all the numbers. True… Although, to be fair, there are lots of sets that have two members, and so the number, while itself abstract, has descriptive power in reality. You (probably) have two hands, two feet, two eyes, and so, to this degree, the concept of “two” is useful. You don’t have “infinite” anything, and so that concept is not useful as a description of any actual attribute, either of man or of god. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/130 "2013-03-20T05:49:57Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Right idea, wrong example. Your example is precisely the kind where if you roll an infinite number of times, the probability is exactly 1 that you’ll roll any given number (or any given finite sequence of numbers). Perhaps you’d be so kind as to gesture in the direction of why this is so. I imagine I know what arguments you’re referring to, but I’d like to be explicit. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/131 "2013-03-20T06:56:24Z")
Mathematical limits. 1/6^n approaches zero as n approaches infinity. You can’t roll 3s and 5s forever; sooner or later a 6 will pop up. (In practice, of course, it happens a lot sooner than later. I would be interested to know what the Las Vegas record is for largest number of rolls of the same number in a row…and what the record is for the largest number of rolls where a given number doesn’t come up.) I think the trouble is that, psychologically, people think of infinity as “a really big number.” But it isn’t. It isn’t a “number” at all, but an absence of closure. There cannot be such a thing as an “accomplished infinity.” One is reminded of the quote from Norton Juster’s book The Phantom Tollbooth. “Just follow that line forever,” said the Mathemagician, “and when you reach the end, turn left.” That’s the problem with an “infinite” God. It means he reached the end of forever…and that simply doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/132 "2013-03-20T10:53:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Cool. So God can break any rule we may come up with. Like, he can exist without existing. He can annihilate himself and then come back again. He can even annihilate himself and not come back again! Wow! That’s power. In fact, I suggest he did exactly that. > > Oops… I can’t imagine why not. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/133 "2013-03-20T21:36:54Z")
One could say that Pierson’s Puppeteers exist because we can describe them, discuss them and create theories about them. When the last word in the last Niven book is no longer legible, the last image made of them is lost and the last person who remembers having read about or heard about Puppeteers either dies or loses their memory, Puppeteers will no longer exist. If there is no evidence of their existence, could they have been said to ever exist, even as an abstract concept? I suppose the existence of god is exactly like that. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/134 "2013-03-21T04:07:12Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Let me start by saying I’ve always thought of myself as an Agnostic. I don’t follow any religion but despite all the reading I’ve done, and knowing full well I have no evidence to back it up, I’ve always believed I have a soul. > > Obviously, a lot of people feel this way. **Now, when I look at life, consciousness, space, time and infinity, I find it to be as incomprehensible as the concept of god. It makes no sense.** Our evidence tells us our universe is infinite, but logically shouldn’t that contradict our reality? I mean in an infinite universe why should the laws of gravity apply? Shouldn’t they break at some point? Furthermore, where did anything even come from and why is it here? Wouldn’t nothingness be more logically consistent than reality? **These are questions I don’t think will ever be answered.** > > In essence, life is a big mystery and the only thing that tells us it’s real is from our experiences. But what of the experience that so many people claim to have when they say they believe on god? Sure, it cannot be measured, but why should we dismiss it out of hand? > > [This VSauce video](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4e_kz79tjb8) is what gives me pause. Towards the end, they discuss an experiment where people are asked to guess the amount of M&M’S in a bottle. No one actually got the answer right, but the groups median answer was within 5. It’s a concept they refer to as “Wisdom of the Crowds.” Now, use that as an analogy to a belief in God. I agree with you on the parts of your post I bolded. There is at least one serious researcher who thinks we may have evolved to believe in a supernatural creator. [Programmed to believe in God?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/bristol/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8242000/8242177.stm) ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177/135 "2013-03-21T10:20:09Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > I agree with you on the parts of your post I bolded. > > There is at least one serious researcher who thinks we may have evolved to believe in a supernatural creator. > > [Programmed to believe in God?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/bristol/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8242000/8242177.stm) V.S. Ramachandran scooped this guy by years by finding the part of the brain wherein lies the seat of divine experience: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/qIiIsDIkDtg/hqdefault.jpg "Ramachandran, the Temporal Lobes and God - Part 1") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-fact-that-so-many-people-believe-in-god-mean-anything/653177.md?page=6)