This is a good one too. Putting faith in it’s place.
Just like the number “two.” And all the numbers.
That little video could replace any number of religious-themed threads we’ve had here over the years, in my opinion.
So what is the point of your OP? Let me remind you of your title question –
It means something to them. It means something to the people they influence. Nothing else. The universe exists with or without them. God exists or doesn’t (which is my opinion, equally valueless in the question of whether a god exists) with or without their opinions or beliefs.
Right idea, wrong example. Your example is precisely the kind where if you roll an infinite number of times, the probability is exactly 1 that you’ll roll any given number (or any given finite sequence of numbers).
Hopefully Thudlowe’s links in post #11 can help you sort this out.
Back to the OP.
The fact that anything exists at all is fundamentally inexplicable. Many physicists believe that they can someday prove that the laws of this universe are the only possible (non-contradictory) ones. Others believe that all possibilities exist (the multiverse thing). Most just don’t know, but are sure we’ll learn more as we go.
In any case, positing God doesn’t resolve the question, it just begs more questions.
But it makes sense that you find these questions perplexing. IMHO, only a fool doesn’t. Some of us can live with the question unanswered; others feel a need to fill the gap with something.
What does the belief in God say? IMHO, it says more about people than it does about God. In particular, many Christians believe in eternal damnation. What does that say about them? It says that they’re either incredibly, disproportionately vengeful, or that they don’t understand much about math and the nature of eternity/infinity. For any finite wrong, any infinite punishment is infinitely disproportionate.
Since a lot of people I respect and love hold this belief, I tend to assume the latter. If I believed there was a God who worked this way, I’d try my best to pretend to worship Him to save my soul, but I doubt I’d be fooling anyone.
Even ignoring the eternity issue, I have a hard time respecting the belief that torment is the appropriate response to disbelief.
The best argument of believers is that if one opens one’s heart to God, one will find Him. I tried seriously, honestly, and hopefully. It failed, so I find that argument valid but not sound.
So does that mean I won the thread? ![]()
At this point I’m kind of wondering what the thread is about. Although some people would consider that a victory. ![]()
Well you made the winning touchdown, but it was in your own endzone.
Cool. So God can break any rule we may come up with. Like, he can exist without existing. He can annihilate himself and then come back again. He can even annihilate himself and not come back again! Wow! That’s power. In fact, I suggest he did exactly that.
Oops…
True… Although, to be fair, there are lots of sets that have two members, and so the number, while itself abstract, has descriptive power in reality. You (probably) have two hands, two feet, two eyes, and so, to this degree, the concept of “two” is useful. You don’t have “infinite” anything, and so that concept is not useful as a description of any actual attribute, either of man or of god.
Perhaps you’d be so kind as to gesture in the direction of why this is so. I imagine I know what arguments you’re referring to, but I’d like to be explicit.
Mathematical limits. 1/6^n approaches zero as n approaches infinity. You can’t roll 3s and 5s forever; sooner or later a 6 will pop up.
(In practice, of course, it happens a lot sooner than later. I would be interested to know what the Las Vegas record is for largest number of rolls of the same number in a row…and what the record is for the largest number of rolls where a given number doesn’t come up.)
I think the trouble is that, psychologically, people think of infinity as “a really big number.” But it isn’t. It isn’t a “number” at all, but an absence of closure. There cannot be such a thing as an “accomplished infinity.”
One is reminded of the quote from Norton Juster’s book The Phantom Tollbooth. “Just follow that line forever,” said the Mathemagician, “and when you reach the end, turn left.”
That’s the problem with an “infinite” God. It means he reached the end of forever…and that simply doesn’t happen.
I can’t imagine why not. ![]()
One could say that Pierson’s Puppeteers exist because we can describe them, discuss them and create theories about them. When the last word in the last Niven book is no longer legible, the last image made of them is lost and the last person who remembers having read about or heard about Puppeteers either dies or loses their memory, Puppeteers will no longer exist. If there is no evidence of their existence, could they have been said to ever exist, even as an abstract concept?
I suppose the existence of god is exactly like that.
I agree with you on the parts of your post I bolded.
There is at least one serious researcher who thinks we may have evolved to believe in a supernatural creator.