# Does the first amendment really let corporations buy elections? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690 "2009-08-25T20:39:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/21 "2009-08-26T16:50:43Z")
> [@Brainiac](#): > > In fact, do corporations have any constitutional rights? > > I don’t see it. Yet there they are, finding one method and then another, gaming the system to sway voters, and all done with other people’s money, the money of investors basically unaware of their agenda. First Amendment for reference: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” Can you provide us with some specific examples of corporations buying elections? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/22 "2009-08-26T16:55:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Dude, this forum is called “Great Debates,” not “Great Statements of Fact or Opinion.” > > There’s nothing wrong with stopping into a debate thread to add some relevant facts, then leaving - if nobody’s going to argue about whether they’re facts. But if their status as facts isn’t clear, or if you’re expressing opinions under the guise of historical context, then they’re only as good as your ability to defend them in debate. > > Just sayin’. I have neither the ability nor the interest to debate each and every whack-a-mole quibble with a broad history of corporations. I yield to my betters. Your post is a case in point. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/23 "2009-08-26T17:10:58Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > First Amendment for reference: > “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” Against my better judgment I will reply. The First Amendment establishes the right of free speech for people. Corporations are not people although our benighted judicial system has backhandedly declared it so. > [@](#): > > Can you provide us with some specific examples of corporations buying elections? How about Fox News for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/24 "2009-08-26T17:21:25Z")
What election did they buy? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/25 "2009-08-26T17:49:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What election did they buy? You probably consider Fox’s huge air time support for Fox sock puppets a contribution. In answer to your question, every one they’ve won. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/26 "2009-08-26T17:56:33Z")
What elections have they won? Sorry to be picky, asking for specifics and all… ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/27 "2009-08-26T17:57:45Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Against my better judgment I will reply. The First Amendment establishes the right of free speech for people. Corporations are not people although our benighted judicial system has backhandedly declared it so. “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech…” Where does it say ‘people’? It says, “the right of the people to peaceably assemble”, but that is an entirely separate clause. Besides, who else speaks but people? I think you are harping on a distinction without a difference. Corporations are made up of people. They are no more than an organizing principle, and no more than the sum of their parts. If you are upset with people using the influence they have earned to further their own goals, then say so. Just because you are jealous of people with more power, money and influence than you doesn’t mean they don’t have rights. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/28 "2009-08-26T18:07:28Z")
When corporations get votes, I will concede that the system views them as people. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/29 "2009-08-26T18:18:42Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech…” > > Where does it say ‘people’? It says, “the right of the people to peaceably assemble”, but that is an entirely separate clause. Besides, who else speaks but people? > > I think you are harping on a distinction without a difference. Corporations are made up of people. They are no more than an organizing principle, and no more than the sum of their parts. If you are upset with people using the influence they have earned to further their own goals, then say so. Just because you are jealous of people with more power, money and influence than you doesn’t mean they don’t have rights. 1 USC 1 is the enabling law that affords corporations legal rights - it’s not a natural result of the plain meaning of the constitution, as much as you’d like to believe. Ergo, the “rights” of corporations can be modified at will. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/30 "2009-08-26T18:25:38Z")
Rather than 1 USC 1 being viewed as a gift to corporations, isn’t it fair to describe it as correcting an oversight in the constitution? If the citizens have rights, why should they lose those rights just because they’ve pooled their resources? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/31 "2009-08-26T18:29:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Rather than 1 USC 1 being viewed as a gift to corporations, isn’t it fair to describe it as correcting an oversight in the constitution? If the citizens have rights, why should they lose those rights just because they’ve pooled their resources? because they haven’t “just pooled their resources” - they have created a distinct legal entity that stands separate and apart form those people that created it. it’s not a gift, it’s just the case that corporations have their legitimacy derived form the first amendment. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/32 "2009-08-26T18:33:42Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Against my better judgment I will reply. The First Amendment establishes the right of free speech for people. Corporations are not people although our benighted judicial system has backhandedly declared it so. Corporations are collections of people. > [@adhay](#): > > How about Fox News for starters. You need to be more specific. How exactly did they “buy” an election? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/33 "2009-08-26T18:38:55Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > because they haven’t “just pooled their resources” - they have created a distinct legal entity that stands separate and apart form those people that created it. So? It still does what they tell it to. It’s not like Godzilla rampaging across the landscape at random. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/34 "2009-08-26T18:40:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Corporations are collections of people. no, it’s not. it’s a completely separate legal entity. if everyone on this planet died tomorrow, Wal-Mart would still exist from a legal standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/35 "2009-08-26T18:44:28Z")
Oh, great, the apocalypse kills everyone and only zombie corporations remain to rule the Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/36 "2009-08-26T18:44:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So? It still does what they tell it to. It’s not like Godzilla rampaging across the landscape at random. A child does what its parent tells it to do. Does that mean it’s not a separate and distinct legal entity? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/37 "2009-08-26T18:46:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, great, the apocalypse kills everyone and only zombie corporations remain to rule the Earth. If you’re going to get snarky, it may actually help to know something about corporate law first. A shareholder cannot get sued for the acts of a corporation (certain exceptions). This is not a natural consequence of “people pooling their resources”. It’s a consequence of the corporation being considered separate from the people that formed it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/38 "2009-08-26T19:36:08Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > I’m referring all requests of this nature to my post. I’m not here to debate. This is the Great Debates forum. We’re here to debate. If you don’t want to defend your positions, you should not have posted here. [QUOTE=RTFirefly] If current interpretation of the Constitution so permitted, it would be possible to do so by passing laws banning lobbying and issue advertising by corporations. Sure, the stockholders, directors, officers, etc. could still lobby as individuals, and it would be impossible to take away that right. But as individuals, they have limited money and time (even if they have more money and free time than the average citizen), and competing demands for those resources. [/QUOTE] I don’t see what would stop a director of Archer Daniels Midland from simply hiring people with his “own money.” Banning a specific legal entity from lobbying will simply invite people to change the legal entity doing the lobbying, but the money can still come from a big business. The problem with the complaints about “Corporations” is, of course, that most corporations are not big businesses at all, but very small ones (or aren’t even businesses; the old timers softball league I play in is a corporation) and not all businesses or large, influential organizations are corporations. Is the AARP a corporation? (They may be, but if so it’s probably a not-for-profit.) How about the NAACP? MADD? MADD is a corporation; should it be prohibited from lobbying politicians, while, say, a nonincorporated business or a trade union is? If there’s a problem with businesses buying votes - and I do not doubt for a minute that it is a problem - I don’t think laws such as you’re proposing will accomplish anything, to be honest. You can’t stop people from talking to other people. You COULD restrict business advertising on political issues, I suppose, but that speaks to the real problem; you need people to wake up and smell the coffee. Other countries managed to get things like single payer health insurance without banning lobbyists. [QUOTE=Rumor\_Watkins] if everyone on this planet died tomorrow, Wal-Mart would still exist from a legal standpoint. [/QUOTE] Um, no. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/39 "2009-08-26T19:41:01Z")
> [@](#): > > no, it’s not. it’s a completely separate legal entity. if everyone on this planet died tomorrow, Wal-Mart would still exist from a legal standpoint. If everyone on this planet died tomorrow, legal standpoints wouldn’t exist. Wal\*Marts, of course, would still exist, though presumably they’d be a bit understaffed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690/40 "2009-08-26T19:49:23Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > A child does what its parent tells it to do. Does that mean it’s not a separate and distinct legal entity? Why does it matter if a corporation is a separate and distinct legal entity? It exists only on paper and cannot take any action without a human’s involvement. It has far _less_ independence than a human child. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-first-amendment-really-let-corporations-buy-elections/507690.md?page=3)