# Does the health of the big box bookstore have anything to do with the health of the printed book? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 30, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826 "2013-01-30T17:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/21 "2013-01-30T22:27:11Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > Would I give up the ability I now have to buy any book I want at midnight, during a snowstorm, when I have a cold and need a book because I’m up coughing and hacking and can’t sleep? This, to me, is the single biggest selling point for ebooks. I can get a book instantly at any hour of the day or night. That and the fact that 500 books weighs as much as my Kindle. Makes my backpack _so much_ lighter. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/22 "2013-01-30T23:34:15Z")
Three or four years ago I would have scoffed at Athena, but now I admit I’m on board. As much as I love bookstores (and will still drop in a place like The Strand or Half Price Books if I get a chance), the online buying experience has become better than most brick and mortar. Just the ability to read a long sample without fear of bending the pages is enough. And how on earth is this a tragedy for literacy? Based on my kids at least, instant book buying is an expensive success. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/23 "2013-01-30T23:55:59Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Three or four years ago I would have scoffed at Athena Three or four years ago, _ **I** _ would have scoffed at myself. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/24 "2013-01-31T01:33:54Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > On one hand, everyone seems to blame the e-book for the latter’s difficulties (the former, it seems, is more blamed on bad management), and in many out of the way places, the big box bookstore is the ONLY place to get books besides the library (and sometimes not even that). And without the small bookstore (killed, admittedly, by said big box stores), what’s left in those places? Nope. Paper books can be found in every Walmart and Costco, that’s a good place to look for what’s killing big box bookstores. > [@](#): > > OTOH, of course, it could be argued that without the big box stores, the smaller bookstore will rise again. Small, niche bookstores in great locations will survive or even thrive. Paper books aren’t going away entirely, some categories just don’t translate well to digital and there are plenty of casual readers who won’t switch to digital. > [@](#): > > OTOOH, that doesn’t do a lot of good if e-books really ARE the reason. > > Personally, I think e-books replacing the printed page is a horrible thing for many reasons, but I recently realized that the failures of B&N and Borders may not have any connection to the printed book in general. So I thought I’d ask here. Whaddya all think? Since Barnes & Noble are the second largest seller of ebooks in the US, it’s pretty hard to blame ebooks for their problems. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/25 "2013-01-31T01:40:09Z")
I thought a sequel to _You’ve Got Mail_ would be interesting now that big mega-book stores are closing and a whole new kind of book sales is dominating. But as Nora Ephron is dead, and Meg Ryan now looks like Carol Channing, maybe that wouldn’t work out so well. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/26 "2013-01-31T02:44:32Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Personally, I think e-books replacing the printed page is a horrible thing for many reasons, but I recently realized that the failures of B&N and Borders may not have any connection to the printed book in general. So I thought I’d ask here. Whaddya all think? I worked at Borders Corporate headquarters from 1998-2004 and I promise you, they were already completely fucked by then by their utter and total mishandling of internet book sales. It would have been one of those fairytale turnaround stories, in my opinion, if they had not failed. It was shame, though, so many true enthusiasts worked for that stupid company once. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/27 "2013-01-31T16:22:29Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Personally, I think e-books replacing the printed page is a horrible thing for many reasons, but I recently realized that the failures of B&N and Borders may not have any connection to the printed book in general. So I thought I’d ask here. Whaddya all think? If there is a connection, it is minor. The health of the big bookstore has to do almost entirely with the health of the online bookstore that can sell books cheaper. Also, “replacing the printed page” does have some advantages - the most significant one I can think of is, you can search for words/phrases and get an instant response, rather than starting at Page 1 and having to go all the way to the end just to discover that what you were looking for wasn’t there (or, worse, it was there, but you misread it). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/28 "2013-01-31T17:14:43Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > If there is a connection, it is minor. The health of the big bookstore has to do almost entirely with the health of the online bookstore that can sell books cheaper. Look up just one post to see that the problems at Borders started at a time when Amazon was a minor annoyance and many supposedly smart people thought they would burn through their money and go out of business. ---
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/29 "2013-01-31T17:15:49Z")
I own both a Kindle and a Nook - both with over 500 different books - not to mention the many .pdf that I downloaded well before I had an ereader. I, like **suranyi** , liked wandering through a bookstore to find something unexpected that struck my fancy. However, I now hang out on several of Amazon’s forums – I find many more recommendations and discussions about books I had never heard of that now I end up reading (or reading the first chapter and saying meh). For me this has replaced the joy of wandering through a bookstore. I still go to B&N, heck I just downloaded my 20% off coupons and plan to use it on their leather backpack, but I normally go only for a specific book - not for the bookstore experience. To illustrate **Athena’s** point, I had outpatient scalp surgery in November, and was unable to drive for 3 days due to Really Great Painkillers. The day of my surgery Vince Flynn’s _The Last Man_ came out. I was reading it on my Nook within 3 hours of getting home. The only books that I dislike using my ereaders for are cookbooks. On both readers the illustrations just don’t convey well. Now I will watch YouTube videos of people cooking on my ereaders while I follow along, but that is different from cookbooks. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/30 "2013-01-31T17:37:41Z")
> [@Reepicheep](#): > > The only books that I dislike using my ereaders for are cookbooks. On both readers the illustrations just don’t convey well. Now I will watch YouTube videos of people cooking on my ereaders while I follow along, but that is different from cookbooks. Yeah, I agree with that. I still buy dead-tree cookbooks, and really any book that has a lot of graphics or illustrations. Sometimes you just want the large format, and the ability to make notes in the book itself. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/31 "2013-01-31T18:36:17Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Print publishing has a list of problems probably too long for the Internet to contain. This. And the rest of your post. People who think the music industry in cahoots with RIAA screwed up the business of music would be shocked if they really understood how the big publishers, in cahoots with Amazon, screwed the book biz. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/32 "2013-01-31T21:33:13Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > And my point is that pretty soon, you might not have that option _at all, anywhere_, and I think that’s a huge tragedy for books and literacy in general. How will that be a tragedy for literacy? Have you never used a library? The vast majority of books I read come from the library. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/33 "2013-01-31T22:16:22Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Yeah, well, as far as film goes, I still don’t like the idea that a lot of our “civilian-level” visual record won’t be readable (or perhaps even existent) a hundred years from now because it’s all digital. It doesn’t sit right; it’s like we’re tech-ing our way out of existence as far as history is concerned. What would give you that impression? There’s no reason to believe that something to read JPEG files won’t be commonplace 100 years from now, assuming there’s no collapse of technological civilization or some other cataclysmic event. I’d even argue that with increasing computing power and storage, archival format reading will be commonplace. Our photos may look as antiquated to people of that time like daguerrotypes do to us, but they’ll be readable. Just because people have stored things on impermanent media or failed to change/upgrade formats with time, only points to the fact that storing stuff like this now has a certain active component. The beauty of it is that the information is now much more easily transmissible and can be independent of its storage medium, unlike the old film-only and paper-only days. If you lose a book, you have to go buy a new one. If you lose your kindle, you just buy a new kindle, but you didn’t lose your library. Plus, in the interim, you can read it online via google cloud reader, or on your tablet or whatever. Or in the photo world, a photo I took in 1984 is probably yellowed and funky looking now, while a digital photo I took in 2010 will be just as bright and accurate in 2110 as it was when I took it. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/34 "2013-01-31T22:43:24Z")
> [@bump](#): > > …a photo I took in 1984 is probably yellowed and funky looking now, while a digital photo I took in 2010 will be just as bright and accurate in 2110 as it was when I took it. (Pardon me while I admire the lovely irony of your chosen date… done.) Assuming you didn’t store it in the cloud and allow several iterations of government and industry to judge whether it was acceptable to keep. Assuming there’s a technological infrastructure around to let you view those flitting bits. And that you have access to it. Back to topic, since Google has pledged itself eternally to not being evil, I guess we can trust them with all the digitized copies of everything from here on out, hey? I think anyone who doesn’t fear the mass digitization of the world’s knowledge isn’t really paying attention, or is under 25, which is much the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/35 "2013-01-31T23:04:29Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I worked at Borders Corporate headquarters from 1998-2004 and I promise you, they were already completely fucked by then by their utter and total mishandling of internet book sales. It would have been one of those fairytale turnaround stories, in my opinion, if they had not failed. > > It was shame, though, so many true enthusiasts worked for that stupid company once. I have a vague recollection that you may have written at length and entertainingly about this here… ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/36 "2013-01-31T23:38:00Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > I think anyone who doesn’t fear the mass digitization of the world’s knowledge isn’t really paying attention, or is under 25, which is much the same thing. You can’t be this paranoid can you? There are so many avenues to digitize content away from the prying eyes of “the government” (or Google, but you talk like they’re one and the same) that this kind of panic is just bizarre to me. Not to mention the fact that there is nothing to stop you from printing out as many of your digital images as you want. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/37 "2013-01-31T23:41:35Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > (Pardon me while I admire the lovely irony of your chosen date… done.) > > Assuming you didn’t store it in the cloud and allow several iterations of government and industry to judge whether it was acceptable to keep. > > Assuming there’s a technological infrastructure around to let you view those flitting bits. And that you have access to it. > > Back to topic, since Google has pledged itself eternally to not being evil, I guess we can trust them with all the digitized copies of everything from here on out, hey? > > I think anyone who doesn’t fear the mass digitization of the world’s knowledge isn’t really paying attention, or is under 25, which is much the same thing. NitroPress ca. 1901: “Them horseless carriages will be the ruination of the Republic! What will the buggy whip makers do? And the manure shovelers? We’ll replace wholesome horse manure in the streets with noise from these infernal machines! I think anyone who doesn’t fear the mechanization of the world’s transport isn’t really paying attention or is under 25, which is much the same thing.” ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/38 "2013-02-01T01:14:27Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > You can’t be this paranoid can you? There are so many avenues to digitize content away from the prying eyes of “the government” (or Google, but you talk like they’re one and the same) that this kind of panic is just bizarre to me. > > Not to mention the fact that there is nothing to stop you from printing out as many of your digital images as you want. Attempting to remove a book from paper circulation is the next thing to impossible. Deleting a book from an electronic archive is the next thing to trivial. If we allow, through intellectual and social laziness, a Google or whatever to become the sole repository of books, reality can be reordered by whoever holds the keys to that repository. As we have a history of being just that lazy and short-sighted… Color me paranoid in as many shades as you like, yes. Libraries diffuse power. The trend we’re on centralizes it… and the Pan-Asian consortium that buys Google 20 years from now may not maintain the quaint “don’t be evil” motto. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/39 "2013-02-01T01:19:47Z")
Two things… > [@NitroPress](#): > > Deleting a book from an electronic archive is the next thing to trivial. Have you never heard the saying, “Once something is on the Internet, it’s on the Internet forever.”? It’s not just a pithy saying, it’s an accepted part of the computer world that was taught to all incoming freshmen at the college I attended back in 1999. > [@NitroPress](#): > > If we allow, through intellectual and social laziness, a Google or whatever to become the sole repository of books, reality can be reordered by whoever holds the keys to that repository. Google is not the sole repository of digital books. Dozens of companies provide digital books and dozens of libraries create their own digital holdings. You or I could create our own digital holdings if we felt like it. Taking a print book and turning it into a digital book is time-consuming, but trivially easy. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826/40 "2013-02-01T01:28:29Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > If we allow, through intellectual and social laziness, a Google or whatever to become the sole repository of books, reality can be reordered by whoever holds the keys to that repository. I don’t understand how Google could ever be characterized as the sole repository, even metaphorically. Google Books is a project that is being done in conjunction with university libraries, each of whom gets to keep their electronic archives. And it’s hardly the only such project in the works. Other companies and governments are implementing similar projects. And there are many repositories outside of Google, including major newspaper archives, that Google barely touches. I can agree that if only one company were to be the only repository on the planet it would be a bad thing. It would also be true if one company were to own all the electricity on earth. But one is as likely as the other. There is literally no real world scenario in which this worst case is possible, let alone likely. Paranoid isn’t really the word. This is Mayan Apocalypse 2012 territory. And I’m over 60. Sorry to do this after you were nice enough to agree with me earlier, but this has no basis. ETA: Ninja’d while I was slowly composing this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-health-of-the-big-box-bookstore-have-anything-to-do-with-the-health-of-the-printed-book/648826.md?page=3)