# Does the Jewish Faith accept.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113 "2003-12-10T06:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lulu37](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/51bf81/32.png) [@lulu37](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lulu37)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/1 "2003-12-10T06:49:40Z")
the “Christian” Old Testament Books of The Bible (say The King James version) as their own also? Or do they have their own version of The Old Testament in other book form? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/2 "2003-12-10T06:55:39Z")
All the varied versions of the Old Testament are **translations** made **from the Hebrew** source. This source is the **Basis** of the Jewish faith. Essentially, it is the case that Christianity accepts the Jewish “Bible” as the “Old Testament” - not the other way around. And all but a very specific Hebrew version (“sealed” around the 1[sup]st[/sup] century AD) are adaptations and/or translations of the source. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/3 "2003-12-10T07:05:58Z")
Basically, we had the bible first. Christians just added a series of extra books (aka “The New Testament”). By tradition, Jews refer to the entire so-called “Old Testament” as the “Tanakh”, subdivided into sections, notably the Torah (the first five books, Genesis-Deuteronomy), the Talmud, the Mishna, and the Midrash. Searches on these terms will spell it out. Fact is, it’s only in relatively recent times that bible books were compiled into one handy-dandy compilation. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/4 "2003-12-10T08:30:23Z")
I think that the question should more correctly read: “**Does the Jewish Faith accept the ‘Christian’ translations of the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. the King James Version) as accurate and correct?**” A question I would also be interested in hearing the answer to… Grim ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/5 "2003-12-10T08:31:01Z")
**Bryan** - the Talmud, Mishnah and Midrash are **not** part of the bible. The Jewish “Bible” is divides into three parts: - **T** orah: The five “Books of Moses” - **N** evi’im - literally “Prophets” AND - **K** ’tubim - literally “Writings” - Psalms, Song of Songs, Job, the various scrolls… Hence the name “ **T** a **N** a **K** h” ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/6 "2003-12-10T08:33:06Z")
Mishnah and Midrash are commentaries on the Torah, correct? Grim ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/7 "2003-12-10T08:43:55Z")
Yes, and the Talmud is Mishnah+G’mara - which is, in turn, commentary on the Mishnah… Oh - and there are actually **two** Talmuds - **Bavli** (persian) - writen in exile in (duh!) Babel, and **Yerushalmi**. Both are, IIRC, separate and different commentaries on the same Mishnah. What most people refer to as “The” Talmud is the **Bavli** version. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/8 "2003-12-10T08:59:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > **Bryan** - the Talmud, Mishnah and Midrash are **not** part of the bible. I know. The word “bible” itself has only been applied in post-Christian times and is strictly speaking, not a correct term for Jewish scripture, _but_ in trying to clarify the issue, I thought it best not to stray too far from terms the OP would be familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/9 "2003-12-10T12:58:28Z")
It is, I think, important to specify that the Tanakh includes only the books in the _Protestant_ Old Testament. The translation of the Jewish Scriptures into Greek during Ptolemaic times, called the Septuagint after the legendary 70 or 72 scholars who completed it, includes 15 additional books that were later omitted from the Jewish canon; the Orthodox Christians accept all these, and Catholics 12 of the 15 (plus using one of the three omissions as the Canticle _Kyrie Pantocrator_, so it’s effectively used.) ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/10 "2003-12-10T13:54:51Z")
No one has answered the OP’s question, so I’ll state it in even more clear terms: Do English-speaking Jews use “Christian” translations of the [insert whatever term you want to use instead of “Old Testament”] such as the King James version, or is there a separate “Jewish” English translation. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/11 "2003-12-10T13:57:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grimpixie \* > \*\*I think that the question should more correctly read: “**Does the Jewish Faith accept the ‘Christian’ translations of the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. the King James Version) as accurate and correct?**” > Grim \*\* No. They’re as good a translation as any, and they’re useful when quoting to English-speakers, but the final authority is always the Hebrew original. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/12 "2003-12-10T14:51:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HeyHomie \* > \*\*No one has answered the OP’s question, so I’ll state it in even more clear terms: > > Do English-speaking Jews use “Christian” translations of the [insert whatever term you want to use instead of “Old Testament”] such as the King James version, or is there a separate “Jewish” English translation. \*\* The Orthodox and Conservative Jewish movements have their own translations. Just a few years ago, the Jewish Publication Society produced a new translation that is being adopted by the Conservative movement. (My experience does not extend to the Reform or Reconstructionist movements.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/13 "2003-12-10T16:50:15Z")
There was a 1917 JPS translation which is for all practical purposes a “Jewish King James”, it was later retranslated throughout the 1980s & is now widely available. I’m waiting for the Everett Fox translation of the Prophets & the Writings- I totally love his Torah. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/14 "2003-12-10T17:48:53Z")
To repeat and clarify: Jews do not accept the Christian translations of the Old Testament. It would unthinkable to find them in use in a synagogue. Jews have their own translations. In my collection of Bibles I find both the 1917 JPS (Jewish Publication Society of America) version and also _The Pentateuch with Haftaroth and Five Megiloth_, english translation by Alexander Harkavy. Copyright 1928, Hebrew Publishing Co… It also was in use in Orthodox synagogues for many decades after that date. The JPS version is completely in English. The HPC version matches the English with the Hebrew. For comparison: > [@](#): > > JPS: > > In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of waters. And God said: ‘Let there be light.’ And there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. > > HPC > > In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. > > And the earth was waste and void; and darkness _was_ upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. > > And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. > > And God saw the light, that it _was_ good: and God divided the light from the darkness. > > And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/15 "2003-12-10T17:50:10Z")
I’ve heard differences of opinion from Jews on what exactly constitutes the “Jewish Bible”. A Jewish friend once told me that the Jewish Bible was just the Torah, and was surprised to learn that Christians count the Prophets, the Histories, Psalms, and the various other Old Testament books to be part of the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![PosterChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e274bd/32.png) [@PosterChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PosterChild)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/16 "2003-12-10T17:50:21Z")
> [@](#): > > No. They’re as good a translation as any, and they’re useful when quoting to English-speakers, but the final authority is always the Hebrew original. There are some major/minor differences between christian and jewish translations. The English in Christian versions tend to interpret some phrases in the Tanakh that “predict” the coming of Jesus. I don’t remember which ones right now, but at one point I looked up sections quoted to me by jewsforjesus and found that they differed from the translation I had. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/17 "2003-12-10T18:00:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*I’ve heard differences of opinion from Jews on what exactly constitutes the “Jewish Bible”. A Jewish friend once told me that the Jewish Bible was just the Torah, and was surprised to learn that Christians count the Prophets, the Histories, Psalms, and the various other Old Testament books to be part of the Bible. \*\* Odd. The JPS version of _The Holy Scriptures_ includes the prophets, psalms, proverbs, and eleven other books through II Chronicles. THe HPC is more limited. After the five books of the Torah, there are also Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, and Esther. I suppose we have a matter of strict or purest definitions versus a more comprehensive view of what is holy. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/18 "2003-12-10T18:48:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grimpixie \* > Mishnah and Midrash are commentaries on the Torah, correct? Not really. The Mishna is not so much a biblical commentary as a collection of religious laws. There are few references to the Bible. The Talmud is a commentary on the Mishna, and explains how the laws are derived from the Bible, as well as expanded treatment of the laws. Accompanied by a large measure of non-legal religious material for good measure. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > there are actually two Talmuds - Bavli (persian) - writen in exile in (duh!) Babel, and Yerushalmi. I don’t know why you said “persian” - it was compiled in Babylon (roughly corresponding to modern Iraq). I don’t know what “Babel” is. > [@](#): > > Both are, IIRC, separate and different commentaries on the same Mishnah More or less. Although there are tractates of Mishna that have commentary in one and not the other (neither is complete). And they also have a lot of overlapping material. Each of these works is a compilation of several centuries of teachings by numerous scholars. Each one focuses on the scholars from that country, but a lot of the teachings made their way from one country to the other. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scuba\_Ben \* > The Orthodox and Conservative Jewish movements have their own translations To clarify here - there is no Orthodox translation produced by the “Orthodox movement”. There are various translations that have been produced by people or groups who are Orthodox, and an Orthodox person using a translation would likely use one of these. (Most Orthodox Jews tend to use the Hebrew original anyway). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > A Jewish friend once told me that the Jewish Bible was just the Torah, and was surprised to learn that Christians count the Prophets, the Histories, Psalms, and the various other Old Testament books to be part of the Bible I can’t imagine what this means. The term “Bible” is an English word that has no significance in Judaism. As other posters mentioned, the works of the prophets etc. are accepted as part of the “written Torah” (as compared to the “oral Torah”, consisting of the Mishna, Talmud, and other later works). The Prophets have less stature than the Torah in terms of things like holiness of the scrolls, but that’s about it. The word “Torah” generally refers to the five books of Moses, and your friend might have been translating this as “Bible”. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/19 "2003-12-10T19:08:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > **To clarify here - there is no Orthodox translation produced by the “Orthodox movement”. There are various translations that have been produced by people or groups who are Orthodox, and an Orthodox person using a translation would likely use one of these. (Most Orthodox Jews tend to use the Hebrew original anyway).** That makes more sense. _Slichah._ I’ve been in an Orthodox shul only a few times, and always on Friday night. I didn’t pay much attention to which _chumash_ they used. (Nb. A _chumash_ is a book containing the text of the Torah divided into its 54 weekly readings, each with the corresponding selection from the prophets, and frequently with commentary.) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113/20 "2003-12-10T19:29:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PosterChild \* > \*\*There are some major/minor differences between christian and jewish translations. The English in Christian versions tend to interpret some phrases in the Tanakh that “predict” the coming of Jesus. I don’t remember which ones right now, but at one point I looked up sections quoted to me by jewsforjesus and found that they differed from the translation I had. \*\* I don’t want to stray too much into GD but the Christian English translations (with the exception of the Jehovah’s Witness version) contain, how to phrase this, very interpretive translations of certain words. Some would call it more deliberate than others. There are several examples of this but the most obvious one is Isaiah 7:14. The Hebrew word in question is _almah_. This word means “young woman.” Most Christain versions translate this as “virgin” so it will square with Matthew. The Hebrew word for virgin is actually _b’sallah_. Haj [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-jewish-faith-accept/218113.md?page=2)