# Does the Mueller probe boil down to a PR fight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 31, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890 "2018-07-31T19:33:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/41 "2018-08-02T16:33:52Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I’m still wondering how Muellers investigation has “lasted over 2 years”when it was started in May of 2017. > > Also, should I note how long the Starr investigation went on, and how far afield it went in it’s efforts to be a political tool for the GOP? Right? Or how about Benghazi, the investigations of which lasted _Obama’s entire second term_? How many people were arrested or indicted as a result of either of these investigations, again? Anyone arguing that the Mueller investigation has gone on too long lacks any historical context _and_ hasn’t been paying any attention whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/42 "2018-08-02T16:34:58Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Right? Or how about Benghazi, the investigations of which lasted _Obama’s entire second term_? How many people were arrested or indicted as a result of either of these investigations, again? Anyone arguing that the Mueller investigation has gone on too long lacks any historical context _and_ hasn’t been paying any attention whatsoever. Or they are hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/43 "2018-08-02T16:38:48Z")
Afraid of the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/44 "2018-08-02T16:51:19Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Afraid of the outcome. Trump sure Tweets like he is. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/45 "2018-08-02T17:30:40Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > It’s not fair to have a 2+ investigation over any president that has produced no charge against him. Watergate had Nixon out in 2 years. Because there was stuff on him. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Mueller’s mandate was to investigate Trump. That’s not so. The scope of the mandate is to investigate links between the Russian government and the **Trump campaign team** (and any crimes discovered in the process). Considering that 1) we know for a fact that the Russian government launched a campaign of cyber attacks and propaganda against the US, and 2) several Trump campaign officials admitted to meeting with representatives of the Russian government, there’s no reality that exists where the investigation is a witch hunt. Whether or not Trump is ultimately implicated in any collusion, the investigation has yielded more than 3 dozen indictments for crimes against the US. If that’s “nothing” after 2 years, then you may want to rethink where your loyalty lies. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/46 "2018-08-02T17:45:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because You say so? Not near good enough, for this statement and all your other declarations of “fact”. > How much have the Russians given Trump to date…and what is your source of information? The Russians gave the Clinton foundation $500,000.00 for a speech. > [@](#): > > The amount of money given to the foundation from “key” Skolkovo partners ranges from $6.5 to $23.5 million, according to Clinton Foundation data. The foundation only discloses donations in ranges, making it difficult to track the exact amount. > **[Russian Government Initiative Gave Millions to Clinton Foundation](https://freebeacon.com/national-security/russian-government-initiative-gave-millions-to-clinton-foundation/)** > > A Moscow-based technology initiative funded in part by the Russian government funneled tens of millions of dollars into the Clinton Foundation. The NY times says Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal. > **[Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html)** > > As the Russian atomic energy agency gradually took charge of a company that controls one-fifth of all uranium production capacity in the United States, a stream of cash made its way to the former president’s charitable organization. Now, can you show me a source that says the Russians gave more To Trump? Where are they? And while y our at it, Iran and Saudi Arabia gave Clinton over 20 million combined. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/47 "2018-08-02T17:48:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because You say so? Not near good enough, for this statement and all your other declarations of “fact”. > How much have the Russians given Trump to date…and what is your source of information? Where is the proof the Russians stole it and gave it to Trump? Show me please? With a team of investigators and millions spent, there is no proof. I can say the Russians also gave Clinton information. Doesn’t make it true. China and Russia try to hack the USA all the time. If they did get information it was on Obama’s watch, and Clinton’s illegal private server sending classified information. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/48 "2018-08-02T17:53:36Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The Russians gave the Clinton foundation $500,000.00 for a speech. > > [Russian Government Initiative Gave Millions to Clinton Foundation](https://freebeacon.com/national-security/russian-government-initiative-gave-millions-to-clinton-foundation/) > > The NY times says Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal. > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html) > > Now, can you show me a source that says the Russians gave more To Trump? Where are they? > > And while y our at it, Iran and Saudi Arabia gave Clinton over 20 million combined. YOU said the Russians gave more to Clinton than they have given to Trump, so how much did they give to Trump, and what is your source? Using your asinine “logic”, I could make the claim that Guam is larger than Australia just by stating that the area of Guam is 210 square miles. 210 whole square miles! Unless you can prove that Guam _isn’t_ 210 square miles in area, then it _must_ be larger than Australia! BTW, the last time I checked Iran and Saudi Arabia aren’t a part of Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/49 "2018-08-02T17:55:32Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The Russians gave the Clinton foundation $500,000.00 for a speech. Russian mobsters funneled millions in dirty money through Trump properties. [Here’s one instance.](https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-taj-mahal/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/50 "2018-08-02T17:58:03Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Mueller’s mandate was to investigate Trump. That’s not so. The scope of the mandate is to investigate links between the Russian government and the **Trump campaign team** (and any crimes discovered in the process). Considering that 1) we know for a fact that the Russian government launched a campaign of cyber attacks and propaganda against the US, and 2) several Trump campaign officials admitted to meeting with representatives of the Russian government, there’s no reality that exists where the investigation is a witch hunt. Whether or not Trump is ultimately implicated in any collusion, the investigation has yielded more than 3 dozen indictments for crimes against the US. If that’s “nothing” after 2 years, then you may want to rethink where your loyalty lies. How many of these allegations are for collusion? Zero. How many indictments are there on Trump? That would be zero again. I’ll stand on these points and wager nothing happens to Trump. They are going after a guy on not paying his taxes over a decade ago. What does that have to do with the main point of the investigation?! If the Russian attack is to fully explored, why not examine Obama who told his cyber chief to stand down or Clinton’s private server? Drill down, and spread a wide net, I guaranteed you they find other crimes. To only examine once side is questionable when the USA Election is the topic. That is where my loyalty stands As for indictments, how many does the Clinton’s have by now? Over 30? I think so. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/51 "2018-08-02T17:59:04Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Russian mobsters funneled millions in dirty money through Trump properties. > > [Here’s one instance.](https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-taj-mahal/index.html) I’m asking for political donations in the 2018 election. If true, what you posted happened in the 1990’s. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/52 "2018-08-02T18:00:56Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > I’m asking for political donations. And I am asking you to back up your statement that the Russians gave more to Clinton than they have given to Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/53 "2018-08-02T18:02:29Z")
Money to the Clinton foundation is not a political donation. Just because Trump used his foundation as a personal piggy bank does not mean other foundations do. The Clinton Foundation is highly rated by charity watch. [https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=16680](https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=16680) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/54 "2018-08-02T18:07:55Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > If true, what you posted happened in the 1990’s. What, you think that he’s not beholden to any Russians for (temporarily) saving at least one of his businesses? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/55 "2018-08-02T18:40:04Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > How many of these allegations are for collusion? Zero. Can you show me in the US Code or any other federal law where the crime of “collusion” is? I’d like to read up on it. 3 of the convictions (Papadapolous, Flynn, and Gates) are for lying to investigators about the exact sort of links between the Russian government and the Trump campaign that the special counsel was appointed to investigate. > [@Silver\_lining](#): > > How many indictments are there on Trump? That would be zero again. Can you show me in the special investigation appointment letter where they’re only allowed to investigate Trump himself? It’s short but I can’t find it in there. > [@Silver\_lining](#): > > They are going after a guy on not paying his taxes over a decade ago. What does that have to do with the main point of the investigation?! It’s cute that you describe it as tax evasion instead of money laundering, which is the actual crime. And it’s money that came from Russian politicians in Ukraine. Considering the scope of the investigation is links between the Russian government and the Trump campaign, payments made in the past between Russian politicians and Trump’s campaign manager seem to be entirely “the main point” of the investigation. > [@Silver\_lining](#): > > If the Russian attack is to fully explored, why not examine Obama who told his cyber chief to stand down or Clinton’s private server? Whatabout you go address these questions in their own threads that you ran away from after people refuted your nonsense? > [@Silver\_lining](#): > > As for indictments, how many does the Clinton’s have by now? Over 30? I think so. Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout you actually argue in good faith on the topic at hand? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/56 "2018-08-02T19:48:25Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > You can argue both. I could, but one of them is not relevant to the OP. My question had to do with whether or not Mueller believes the a sitting president–any sitting president, not just your idol–can be indicted and, if not, does the issue of Russian collusion boil down to a PR fight. You apparently chose to ignore that and started off on yet another Trump-is-always-right-and-he-will-win-win-win rant. But whatever. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/57 "2018-08-02T19:48:28Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > As for indictments, how many does the Clinton’s have by now? Over 30? I think so. How many indictments do the clinton’s have? do tell. How many of them have led to convictions and/or guilty pleas? (IOW - CITE?) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/58 "2018-08-02T20:38:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Silver Lining** : > > I’m asking for political donations in the 2018 election. Both Clintons combined received exactly zero dollars in political donations in the 2018 election. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/59 "2018-08-03T00:38:13Z")
\*\*Silver\_lining \*\*provides the answer to the OP. He won’t accept the results of the probe regardless of what those results show. There is no evidence that he will accept, so there is no PR to be had that will help as he has declared himself impervious to facts. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890/60 "2018-08-03T02:29:14Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > \*\*Silver\_lining \*\*provides the answer to the OP. He won’t accept the results of the probe regardless of what those results show. There is no evidence that he will accept, so there is no PR to be had that will help as he has declared himself impervious to facts. Technically, he has included a criteria that we already know to be false, as his condition for acceptance. “I will only accept that Bob murdered Jane if Bob is covered in her blood and Jane was actually a person from outer space.” Somewhat reasonable up to the point where you get to the “and”. Not only is the latter unlikely to be true, but it’s also completely irrelevant to the question of murder. We currently don’t believe that the Russians modified any voter equipment, but no one ever accused them of doing so, nor was that ever a condition of collusion. Effectiveness is not a condition of collusion, either. If the Russians did nothing of any value for the election, but Trump paid them to, swapped information with them, or did anything else, then it’s treasonous. Maybe not Constitutionally treasonous, but certainly by lay-speak. So to add any extra requirements is, simply, a disservice to the nation and grossly shameful mental dishonesty for the purpose of partisan politics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-mueller-probe-boil-down-to-a-pr-fight/818890.md?page=4)