# Does "the new U.S.-Mexico-Canada deal make all three countries stronger"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383 "2018-10-03T18:14:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/61 "2018-10-07T11:39:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s the point I’ve been making. Too many people are just talking about America importing goods and how a tariff benefits us. Well, and they should also talk about how tariffs hurts Americans. Somehow, Donald Trump has gotten his followers to think raising their taxes is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/62 "2018-10-08T09:46:04Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > The company making the car isn’t all that relevant to your purpose. > > Since NAFTA was first implemented automakers shifted to producing for the entire North American market. They build in factories located in the three countries. Supply chains can cross borders multiple times before final assembly. You might be turning up your nose at a GM that is mostly Canadian made in order to buy a Honda made in the US. > > Welcome to globalization. I would argue that where something is made is not as important as the company it benefits for me to purchase it. Not that I would ever buy a car that wasn’t used, anyways. That first bit of depreciation always seems to make used worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/63 "2018-10-08T17:09:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, and they should also talk about how tariffs hurts Americans. > > Somehow, Donald Trump has gotten his followers to think raising their taxes is a good thing. That’s a separate point from what I was saying but I’ll grant you it’s an important point. Too many discussions about the American “economy” tend to focus on the economy of American corporate executives. Even if we accept the notion that tariffs benefit America, we should acknowledge that they actually only benefit the handful of Americans who own a manufacturing company. It’s the same thing with other economic “good news”. When typical Trumpers brag about how great a job Trump is doing because of high stock market prices, I feel like asking them how big their personal portfolio is. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/64 "2018-10-08T17:15:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s a separate point from what I was saying but I’ll grant you it’s an important point. Too many discussions about the American “economy” tend to focus on the economy of American corporate executives. Even if we accept the notion that tariffs benefit America, we should acknowledge that they actually only benefit the handful of Americans who own a manufacturing company. > > It’s the same thing with other economic “good news”. When typical Trumpers brag about how great a job Trump is doing because of high stock market prices, I feel like asking them how big their personal portfolio is. Easier question is, are you just using the DOW to determine how well things are going, or if not what metrics are you using? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/65 "2018-10-09T17:37:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Mercantilism? Where did you study economics; the Holy Roman Empire? Mercantilism was the stuff that Adam Smith discredited back in the 18th century. You might as well be calling for the establishment of guilds and the outlawing of usury. Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and China are (or have been) mercantalistic. As are Germany and other protectionist export oriented economies. Mercantilism, according to Laura LaHay, in the Library of Economics and Liberty, “is economic nationalism for the purpose of building a wealthy and powerful state.” Economist Adam Smith coined the term mercantile system. It can only last as long as the trading partners allow it to last. Sometimes they don’t have a choice but to allow the mercantile behaviour and that may be the case with America’s trading partners right now because it would be devastating to their economy if an actual trade war broke out. Perhaps in America’s case it is more correct to call it protectionism rather than mercantalism because we are trying to get back to a balanced position rather than improve on an already good position. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/66 "2018-10-09T17:39:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > We’ve already been in the British Empire, no need to go back. Britain was an empire and you were a colony, you would not be a colony as the 51st through 60th states. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/67 "2018-10-09T17:49:26Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > You see, you _say_ that, but will you, really? Trump is just the tip of the iceberg. Trump by himself wouldn’t be a problem, it’s everyone else around Trump who is the real problem. The people who voted for him, despite his obvious flaws. The people who still support him, _because of_ his obvious flaws. The cowards and scoundrels in Congress who won’t act to curb him. The cowards and scoundrels in Congress who go out of their way to \*help \*him. Trump had a unique message; most of the other 20 Republican candidates had slight variations of the same message. I expect to see the Republican party become more protectionist, more isolationist, less benevolent on the international stage. The new Republican party would have parked the tanks on the Iraqi oilfields and sucked them dry. The new Republican party would be more Machiavelli/Sun Tzu and less City on a Hill > [@](#): > > And every scumbag power grabber out there who’s watching this all, and taking notes. How many open Nazis and regular racists have thrown their hat into the Republican ring this election cycle? Not much more than usual and they are not experiencing a lot more success than usual. > [@](#): > > Do you really see a way back to how it used to be? I can’t see that happening even if you tried to do a 180 _right now_. After another 6 years of this? Your government will be so irrevocably broken that you’ll pretty much have to start over. The thing about a democracy is that we do in fact start over every 2 years, 4 and 6 years. The only thing that is not subject to the election cycle is SCOTUS. > [@](#): > > And gods alone know what that will look like. I think we should be fine. I suspect that when we elect our next Democratic Government, things will revert to normalcy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/68 "2018-10-09T17:52:09Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > And you’re right (see my other post). Right now. But recent events are going to little by little have other countries inch away from trading with the USA because now people are seeing the USA as being a potentially unstable partner. And it is this attitude that the USA is the best (despite not really being the best at a great many things) and we will _always_ be the best that also helps to push people away. Empires fall and the USA is no different. It is simply a question when and how. I don’t see anyone moving away from the USA. People don’t really choose their trading partners so much as they pursue business opportunities. And right now, America is still the people you do business with to make money. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I agree. Was I not clear that I’m not happy about the USA descending? I mean I am a little bit because I think Americans kind of having it come because of the arrogance and the way they treat the world, but that’s a whole other kettle of fish. But from the perspective of the country I love, Canada, yeah, of course I wish the USA would continue to be successful. A powerful USA has been great for Canada, there is zero doubt about this. A descending USA will imply a descending Canada (and Mexico for that matter). I wish for nothing more than for Canada and the USA to remain good friends and allies. It is too bad that one of those friends just called the other friend a national security risk. You cannot on the one hand say to a friend, we don’t trust you, but on the other hand keep treating _us_ as if we’re you’re close friend. They’re just words… by our commander in chief. But still just bullshit words. He’s an embarrassing buffoon but hopefully he will serve as a cautionary tale to the rest of the world and future generations. > [@](#): > > And as per my other post, I have no problem with NAFTA being renegotiated. It was a slightly older agreement. It could be modernized. No problem. It is that it was re-negotiated that irks me, it probably needed it because a lot has changed in the past couple of decades. It was the manner in which it was done that is irksome. fair enough. It was insulting but that is this president’s stock in trade. Like some of the posters on this board he discovered that insults carry a lot of mileage and costs little in the near term. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/69 "2018-10-09T18:20:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Britain was an empire and you were a colony, you would not be a colony as the 51st through 60th states. I seriously doubt that Napoleon would have sold the Louisiana Purchase to Great Britain, but what’s with “the 51st through 60th states”? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/70 "2018-10-09T19:32:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and China are (or have been) mercantalistic. As are Germany and other protectionist export oriented economies. Protectionism is not mercantilism. Mercantilism is the economic theory that there is only a finite amount of wealth in the world based on physical commodities like land or gold. People build up wealth by taking it from other people; the only way one person grows richer is if somebody else becomes poorer. Mercantilism then goes on to expend this to a national scale; nations need to compete against other nations in grabbing the most resources. If they don’t, those other nations will grab the resources first and become more powerful than the nation that practices restraint. Mercantilism was the economic theory that justified the first wave of imperialism. It also justified the exploitation of colonies because it said that if the home country spend money on the colonies, it would end up poorer and weaker. So the home countries had to ensure that money flowed from the colonies to the home country rather than the other way around. Mercantilism essentially denied the possibility that you could create new wealth. So there was no point in investment; you weren’t putting money into something with the expectation it would become more valuable. All you were doing was spending money, which was then lost. The closest thing to an investment was doing something like buying a gun so you could go out and rob people and thereby get more money than the gun cost you. But that was just redistributing wealth not creating it. Adam Smith threw this theory out when he pointed out that it was possible to create wealth. You can invest money and become richer without somebody else having to lose the money you’re gaining. For example, rather than buying a gun to rob people, you can buy some metal and wood and build a gun which you then sell. You’re happy because you sold the gun for more than you paid for the raw materials. The guy who bought the gun is happy because the gun is more valuable to him than the raw materials would have been. You have a transaction where both parties ended up with more than they started with; you have created wealth. This is capitalism and pretty much everyone believes in it, even people like the communists who don’t like it. What happened in East Asia is sometimes called neomercantilism, which is not mercantilism. It’s basically just capitalism but with some restrictions on free trade. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383/71 "2018-10-09T21:32:02Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Trump supporters do not now believe in free trade but they are no longer agitating for trade restrictions. > Trump is like most politicians, once a subject is dealt with, they declare victory and move on. There won’t be anymore rumblings of a trade war with Mexico or Canada for a decade at least. But the subject was “dealt” with before he took office. The only rumblings of a Trade war were ones he (and some others on the right) created. Gee, Dr. Trump ever since you stopped punching me in the face my nose pain went away, your a medical miracle worker! This is just part of Trumps SOP 1. Threaten to take action that would create a disaster 2. get talked down by cooler heads 3. decide against moves in step 1 4. claim credit for averting disaster predicted in step 1. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-new-u-s-mexico-canada-deal-make-all-three-countries-stronger/822383.md?page=3)