# Does the notion of "passing" still have any currency in your community, Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 9, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761 "2018-06-09T15:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/41 "2018-06-10T23:42:45Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Thanks to companies like 23 and me and the others we are _also_ now seeing that a LOT of people have recent African ancestry, even if they’re pale skinned and paled haired Yeah I assumed I would have a little bit at least, because I thought _everyone_ has a tiny bit. But there was 0%. What’s with that? I thought everyone had a least a very tiny bit that would show up on a test. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/42 "2018-06-10T23:55:03Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Thanks to companies like 23 and me and the others we are _also_ now seeing that a LOT of people have recent African ancestry, even if they’re pale skinned and paled haired… > [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Yeah I assumed I would have a little bit at least, because I thought _everyone_ has a tiny bit. But there was 0%. What’s with that? I thought everyone had a least a very tiny bit that would show up on a test. I don’t know what Broomstick means by “a LOT”, but most Americans who identify as white don’t have recent African ancestry, so odds are don’t, if you’re white (or Asian). Odds increase if you’re Latino. I’m not sure why you think most everyone has recent African ancestry. What are you thinking “recent” means, btw? There is also the issue of how precise these tests can be. I don’t know what the cut-off is for the noise level of these tests, but I’d expect it to be close to 1% at best, so even a result that said you were 1% African would probably be suspect. For $100, that’s actually pretty darn good! ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/43 "2018-06-11T00:16:04Z")
I guess it makes sense if you think in terms of percentages over a long timescale. If I’m descended from people who lived in Europe for literally thousands of years, and assuming that no Africans mixed with the families, which is probably unlikely, it would not be mathematically possible for the percentage of African to be any greater than two zeroes past the decimal point, and the DNA test only measures it down to the .01s. Right? Some Europeans with Spanish or Southern Italian might have small amounts of African descent, but my Italian genes are from Northern Italy, and I don’t have any Spanish. You probably remember the notorious “Sicilian scene” from _True Romance._ I never really put much stake in that; first of all, there’s no reason to think that all or even most Sicilians have Moorish blood, and secondly, whether the Moors actually were the thing that Dennis Hopper’s character called them, is debatable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/44 "2018-06-11T01:49:21Z")
I wouldn’t assume we knew what our ancestors were doing thousands of years ago or that your Norther Italian ancestors didn’t have ancestors from lots of different places in that time period. And those consumer DNA tests are looking at the last few hundred years, not thousands. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/45 "2018-06-11T06:56:01Z")
Well I read that about 4% of us are Neanderthals so at least those people aren’t African. I think they’re from France. Anyways, who knows? ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/46 "2018-06-11T08:27:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know what Broomstick means by “a LOT”, but most Americans who identify as white don’t have recent African ancestry, so odds are don’t, if you’re white (or Asian). Odds increase if you’re Latino. I’m not sure why you think most everyone has recent African ancestry. What are you thinking “recent” means, btw? There is also the issue of how precise these tests can be. I don’t know what the cut-off is for the noise level of these tests, but I’d expect it to be close to 1% at best, so even a result that said you were 1% African would probably be suspect. For $100, that’s actually pretty darn good! I was thinking of all the white people I’ve heard of who grew up hearing about the “Indian princess” in the family tree who find out that she was probably an African-American slave or freedwoman. Or black man passing as white/Indian/whatever I live in an area with a significant number of folks from south of the US border, so quite a few of them have recent (within the past 500 years, let’s say) African ancestry. Also quite a few of the folks we have from the Middle East and a smaller slice from southern Europe. “A LOT” meaning in part that most of these folks weren’t expecting those results at all, so if you’re going by the “one drop” rule (which I’m happy to say seems to be going away) you suddenly have a lot more “black” people in the neighborhood. Except it’s pretty apparent to everyone that these folks aren’t black culturally or in how society treats them ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/47 "2018-06-11T10:04:57Z")
Based on this thread I get the impression that black Swedes visiting the US hear a lot of things that get old pretty fast… or is that type of thing (that someone would dare to open their mouth and say something like, “You’re a Jew and a Swede? But… you’re black!” out loud) confined to certain regions? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/48 "2018-06-11T13:29:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I was thinking of all the white people I’ve heard of who grew up hearing about the “Indian princess” in the family tree who find out that she was probably an African-American slave or freedwoman. Or black man passing as white/Indian/whatever > > I live in an area with a significant number of folks from south of the US border, so quite a few of them have recent (within the past 500 years, let’s say) African ancestry. Also quite a few of the folks we have from the Middle East and a smaller slice from southern Europe. > > “A LOT” meaning in part that most of these folks weren’t expecting those results at all, so if you’re going by the “one drop” rule (which I’m happy to say seems to be going away) you suddenly have a lot more “black” people in the neighborhood. Except it’s pretty apparent to everyone that these folks aren’t black culturally or in how society treats them OK. And just to be clear, I wasn’t criticizing your post. It just seemed like that other poster was interpreting “a lot” to mean “most”, and I didn’t think you were suggesting that. The phenomenon you are talking about is not at all uncommon. The so-called Indian [princess or otherwise] often turns out to have not existed or to have been something other than Indian. For other reasons, most blacks in the US who think they have Indian ancestry are mistaken about that. Not all, but most who have been tested. On a related note, the famous “one drop rule” was often more of a cultural norm than a legal one. As it applied to Indian ancestry as well as African, the states tended to limit the legal ruling to some specific fraction (1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16) because of what was sometimes referred to as the Pocahontas rule or exception. Too many of the “best families” had been in the Americas a long time, and did have some Native American ancestry, if in the distant past. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/49 "2018-06-11T13:38:20Z")
Some of those not-Amerindian genes may in fact have come through an Amerindian person, who themselves had partial or total (adoption) non-Amerindian ancestry. My Seminole coworker looked more like the phenotype associated with kilts than war bonnets, the Seminole nation having adopted boatloads of Scotts and Scots-Irish about the time of the American Revolution; his lastname is Scots-Irish. All four grandparents were Seminole Nation members though. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/50 "2018-06-11T13:44:01Z")
“Passing” implies deceit. Though modern technology has graphically shown that being Black can still suck big time, it used to be a lot worse, and light skinned Blacks would try to “pass” as White if at all possible because it gave them access to a totally different, and better world. It is a term that belongs to the past. Now, I hear terms like “multi-ethnic” and “bi-racial” to describe people of mixed races. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/51 "2018-06-11T14:33:57Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Some of those not-Amerindian genes may in fact have come through an Amerindian person, who themselves had partial or total (adoption) non-Amerindian ancestry. My Seminole coworker looked more like the phenotype associated with kilts than war bonnets, the Seminole nation having adopted boatloads of Scotts and Scots-Irish about the time of the American Revolution; his lastname is Scots-Irish. All four grandparents were Seminole Nation members though. This is a good point and something that a lot of people don’t understand: being Native American is about tribal affiliation and family connections to the tribe, not how you look or what your genetic ancestry is. There are enrolled members of tribal bands who look “white” or “black”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/52 "2018-06-11T16:23:52Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > This is a good point and something that a lot of people don’t understand: being Native American is about tribal affiliation and family connections to the tribe, not how you look or what your genetic ancestry is. There are enrolled members of tribal bands who look “white” or “black”. There are 2 categories when talking about Native Americans (maybe more, but for this discussion 2 are mostly relevant): 1. Do you have Native American genetic ancestry? 2. Are you a registered member of a federally recognized tribe? Obviously a lot of overlap, but you can be in either category and not the other. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/53 "2018-06-11T16:27:05Z")
The last mention I recall of this in the wild was when a coworker accused me of “passing” around 2003-2004. Mind you, she only figured this out because there was a photo of me with my cousins (who look far more like the black side of the family) displayed in my office. So I’m not sure she was clear on the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/54 "2018-06-11T17:25:57Z")
I hope that co-worker got a good swift kick in the ass or at least a dressing-down for that bullshit. “Accusing” you?! What the hell? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/55 "2018-06-11T18:40:50Z")
If asked Emily should answer “why do you ask?” Which is the polite form of MYOFB. A huge part of our problems in this country have to do with my racial/gender/sexual/professional/class/et. al. identity being someone else’s business. They aren’t. And someone else deciding if it counts or is relevant. If I don’t choose to share, that is my business. And people really shouldn’t care - except on the societal level of correcting problems. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/56 "2018-06-11T18:43:16Z")
Who is making the accusation of “passing?” I would consider that racist as hell. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/57 "2018-06-11T19:02:02Z")
Even today, within the African-American community, lighter skinned blacks often have a different life experience than people with darker tones. Interesting article that offers possible remedies. I think this bias will eventually change, the sooner the better. There are more and more people of mixed race. There’s no room for any prejudice. > **[dark skin pain, light skin privilege: 9 solutions to dismantling colorism in...](https://afropunk.com/2017/10/dark-skin-pain-light-skin-privilege-9-solutions-dismantling-colorism-black-community/)** > > By Suzanne Forbes-Vierling\*, AFROPUNK contributor Colorism finds its origins in slavery. During this time, we found that white slave owners preferred Africans who possessed European features. Light-skinned slaves were oftentimes products of rape... ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/58 "2018-06-11T19:23:19Z")
I’d like to ask, does she talk with an accent? if so is it more Swedish accent or African? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/59 "2018-06-11T19:35:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There are 2 categories when talking about Native Americans (maybe more, but for this discussion 2 are mostly relevant): > > 1. Do you have Native American genetic ancestry? > > 2. Are you a registered member of a federally recognized tribe? > > Obviously a lot of overlap, but you can be in either category and not the other. I think there are far more people raised with familial traditions and culture descended from Native American heritage than would fit in either of your two categories. I don’t think their experience and traditions should be negated although it is currently popular to call it “appropriation” unless 23andMe backs up the claim. Here’s hoping that tendency dies soon. > [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I hope that co-worker got a good swift kick in the ass or at least a dressing-down for that bullshit. “Accusing” you?! What the hell? > [@Ashtura](#): > > Who is making the accusation of “passing?” I would consider that racist as hell. She was a racist. A tall beautiful black woman who grew up in a rural area in grinding poverty. She and her family were treated very badly, and she had a lot of baggage because of it. Unfortunately, she tended to be quite nasty to light-skinned or white-appearing folks, and subservient toward people she considered “fully white.” We tried including her, and showing her support and kindness. We hoped with time she would see that things are different here. She just got nastier. It was sick, and toxic to the office culture, and in the end I don’t think any of us had the first clue what to do about it except to just avoid her as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761/60 "2018-06-11T19:42:20Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Based on this thread I get the impression that black Swedes visiting the US hear a lot of things that get old pretty fast… or is that type of thing (that someone would dare to open their mouth and say something like, “You’re a Jew and a Swede? But… you’re black!” out loud) confined to certain regions? Well, there’s really two possible reactions: “You’re a Jew and a Swede? But… you’re black!” in a tone that’s judgmental, disbelieving, or disapproving, and “You’re a Jew and a Swede _and_ you’re black? That’s interesting!” with sincere curiosity and interest. I suppose you’ll get a few who shrug their shoulders and couldn’t care less, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-notion-of-passing-still-have-any-currency-in-your-community-americans/815761.md?page=4)