# Does the numbers racket still exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 28, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565 "2013-05-28T18:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/21 "2013-05-30T12:45:16Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > It would seem trivial to announce the final three figures as ones which would best suit the racketeers. > Seems odd this didn’t occur to them. I’m pretty sure the source of the number would be agreed to in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/22 "2013-05-30T13:04:53Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > The amount of money wagered at the track on a certain day. > > The previous day’s race results would be printed in the newspaper, and below all the results, there would be a notation like “Handle: $462,963.” This means that in total, bettors wagered $462,963 at the given track on the previous day. And if a numbers game is operating in the area, and using the track handle to determine winners, then any holders of number 963 would win. Thanks, **Spoons**. I’m always learning on this board. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/23 "2013-05-30T13:11:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Related to this, but possibly confirmable, I was told that one of the NYC newspapers (perhaps the DailyNews) would list a daily horse race that didn’t occur and the payoff amount on that race was the daily number. > [@Spoons](#): > > The previous day’s race results would be printed in the newspaper, and below all the results, there would be a notation like “Handle: $462,963.” This means that in total, bettors wagered $462,963 at the given track on the previous day. And if a numbers game is operating in the area, and using the track handle to determine winners, then any holders of number 963 would win. I didn’t notice your post before, but that’s some confirmation that the number would appear in the racing results in the newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/24 "2013-05-30T13:57:05Z")
TriPolar, I would be very surprised to get confirmation that the numbers were based on a nonexistent race. The whole point of using betting or stock results is that the guys running the numbers do not have control over the outcome. I find it unlikely that using nonexistent races would remain a secret, and why would anyone bet with a guy who directly controls whether or not you win? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/25 "2013-05-30T15:22:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Related to this, but possibly confirmable, I was told that one of the NYC newspapers (perhaps the DailyNews) would list a daily horse race that didn’t occur and the payoff amount on that race was the daily number. I’m from New York, and I’ve never heard anything like this. I would say the idea is absurd. It would be extremely easy to check whether a race had occurred or not (especially by the 1980s when Off-Track Betting existed.) I also can’t imagine a paper of the size of the Daily News colluding in such a scheme. The whole idea of pegging the number to a figure that would be published in a newspaper like the take from a racetrack or a stock exchange index was to instill confidence that the number itself had not been manipulated. (It was also an easy way for people to find out if they won or not.) Now, it’s possible that someone might have occasionally been able to tamper with the published number by bribing a printer or someone, but if that were a regular occurrence it would soon become known and people would be less likely to play. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/26 "2013-05-30T15:26:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Now, it’s possible that someone might have occasionally been able to tamper with the published number by bribing a printer or someone, but if that were a regular occurrence it would soon become known and people would be less likely to play. Happened more than once. The same individuals are not known to have done it twice, being busy with icthyological investigations at the bottom of the Hudson. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/27 "2013-05-30T16:14:25Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m endlessly amused by the fact that the criminals generally took a lower rake than the government. Illegal games have to compensate their customers for the added risk of the funds being seized by the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/28 "2013-05-30T16:16:15Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Illegal games have to compensate their customers for the added risk of the funds being seized by the authorities. Instead of the authorities raking in the funds directly.😉 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/29 "2013-05-30T18:07:01Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m endlessly amused by the fact that the criminals generally took a lower rake than the government. Government operations are always inefficient. Don’t you read the right-wing political threads? ---
**Author:** ![Fleetwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fleetwood/32/271_2.png) [@Fleetwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fleetwood)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/30 "2013-05-30T18:23:04Z")
> [@Fleetwood](#): > > I remember being able to play the number in Boston in mid to late nineties. Well past the advent of the _legal_ number. It was referred to as the street or n\_word number. Was based on a racetrack handle, IIRC. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > That’s the old-school form. If I may again reference Mr. Scarne, he said that in most places the rackets known as the “n\*\*\*\*\*-numbers” in the 1930s and 40s were taken over by the mob by the middle of the war and became known as just the numbers. Racetrack handles were a common source. It was most certainly mob run. Those were just the names that it was called. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565/31 "2013-05-31T03:48:39Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I didn’t notice your post before, but that’s some confirmation that the number would appear in the racing results in the newspaper. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > TriPolar, I would be very surprised to get confirmation that the numbers were based on a nonexistent race. The whole point of using betting or stock results is that the guys running the numbers do not have control over the outcome. I find it unlikely that using nonexistent races would remain a secret, and why would anyone bet with a guy who directly controls whether or not you win? > [@Colibri](#): > > I’m from New York, and I’ve never heard anything like this. I would say the idea is absurd. It would be extremely easy to check whether a race had occurred or not (especially by the 1980s when Off-Track Betting existed.) I also can’t imagine a paper of the size of the Daily News colluding in such a scheme. > > The whole idea of pegging the number to a figure that would be published in a newspaper like the take from a racetrack or a stock exchange index was to instill confidence that the number itself had not been manipulated. (It was also an easy way for people to find out if they won or not.) Now, it’s possible that someone might have occasionally been able to tamper with the published number by bribing a printer or someone, but if that were a regular occurrence it would soon become known and people would be less likely to play. It confirms that number would appear in the newspaper. I didn’t mean it had to be a phony race result, which I find dubious for the 1980s. Spoons’ description of using a legitmate number published in the paper does make sense though. There would be no reason to rig the number when the odds heavily favor the house, and the house could stop runs on numbers like the current date. However, using the newpaper in to print false information could have happened in times past. The authorities could easily have been turning a blind eye to the activity at some not too distant time in the past. However even then it would just be easier to use some legitimate number that was published. But publishing the number somehow would be an important part of the operation, it gives the impression of an honest business. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-numbers-racket-still-exist/659565.md?page=1)