# Does the pope have any tangible authority over world events **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519 "2005-04-03T13:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/1 "2005-04-03T13:53:09Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050403/ap\_on\_re\_eu/vatican\_next\_pope](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050403/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_next_pope) According to that the next pope may be Cardinal Claudio Hummes who is concerned about fighting poverty. If he is elected would he have any real authority or would he just have the ability to meet with world leaders, making him no more effective at world politics than someone like Jesse Jackson. Does the Pope in general have any real authority or is his authority just derived from the fact that he is pope, and people will take his messages to heart? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/2 "2005-04-03T15:34:58Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050403/ap\_on\_re\_eu/vatican\_next\_pope](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050403/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_next_pope) > > According to that the next pope may be Cardinal Claudio Hummes who is concerned about fighting poverty. If he is elected would he have any real authority or would he just have the ability to meet with world leaders, making him no more effective at world politics than someone like Jesse Jackson. Does the Pope in general have any real authority or is his authority just derived from the fact that he is pope, and people will take his messages to heart? I believe the political influece held by a religious leader of this magnitude lies mainly in his ability to personally influence political world leaders through pure charisma and appeal to the common sense of “good”. The “good”, as we have seen, is entirely subjective. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/3 "2005-04-03T18:42:37Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I believe the political influece held by a religious leader of this magnitude lies mainly in his ability to personally influence political world leaders through pure charisma and appeal to the common sense of “good”. The “good”, as we have seen, is entirely subjective. I think the other power that a religious leader like the Pope has is his ability to persuade followers to work for change. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/4 "2005-04-03T19:05:23Z")
I believe something different. The pope might release a press release emphsizing the “importance” of not using arifical means of birth control. A political leader notices this and votes against birth control education. If, on the other hand, said pope was to emphsize the importance of ending world hunger, a politican is likely to give lipservice to ending world hunger, and not really change anything. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/5 "2005-04-03T19:32:46Z")
I heard this analogy years ago… I forget exactly who said it, and I’m sure I’m getting part of it wrong, but I think it’s pretty accurate. In most of the Catholic world, the Pope is like a favorite uncle or a beloved grandfather. That is, everyone in the family adores him, everyone keeps his picture on the wall, everyone rolls out the red carpet when he comes for a visit, and everyone is always happy to see him. BUT… when he starts dispensing advice, everyone’s eyes glaze over. Everyone smiles, nods, and proceeds to ignore whatever he says. And it’s not only liberal “cafeteria Catholics” who do this. Pope John Paul II had little luck convincing consevrative Catholics to oppose the death penalty or the war in Iraq, after all. A pope can use his “bully pulpit,” just as the President can,. but it’s far from obvious that his edicts carry much clout with even the most devout Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/6 "2005-04-03T19:47:28Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I heard this analogy years ago… I forget exactly who said it, and I’m sure I’m getting part of it wrong, but I think it’s pretty accurate. > > In most of the Catholic world, the Pope is like a favorite uncle or a beloved grandfather. That is, everyone in the family adores him, everyone keeps his picture on the wall, everyone rolls out the red carpet when he comes for a visit, and everyone is always happy to see him. BUT… when he starts dispensing advice, everyone’s eyes glaze over. Everyone smiles, nods, and proceeds to ignore whatever he says. > > And it’s not only liberal “cafeteria Catholics” who do this. Pope John Paul II had little luck convincing consevrative Catholics to oppose the death penalty or the war in Iraq, after all. A pope can use his “bully pulpit,” just as the President can,. but it’s far from obvious that his edicts carry much clout with even the most devout Catholics. That was my understanding too, but I think the Pope’s views on communism and birth control have had a large effect in the third world. But here in the western world the Pope is more of a well liked celebrity than an authority figure. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/7 "2005-04-03T20:34:07Z")
Or, as Stalin asked with a sneer, “The Pope? How many battalions has he got?” ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/8 "2005-04-03T22:05:21Z")
Josef Stalin is not someone who’s governmental, legal, religious or personal theories or practices should be emulated. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/9 "2005-04-03T22:39:11Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Josef Stalin is not someone who’s governmental, legal, religious or personal theories or practices should be emulated. Thank you for your timely warning. I was just about to order all my generals shot. That was a close one! ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/10 "2005-04-04T00:07:33Z")
While I’m certainly glad you’re not going to sentence anyone to a gulag, aldiboronti, you’re the one who approvingly quoted a snide remark from a mass murderer. When you lie down with pigs you wake up covered in excrement, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/11 "2005-04-04T00:18:02Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Pope John Paul II had little luck convincing consevrative Catholics to oppose the death penalty or the war in Iraq, after all. Well, THIS conservative Catholic has indeed re-evaluated his support for both based in part on the teachings of John Paul II. I am still in the process, but will probably eventually conclude that he is right about the death penalty, and, based on the apparent results in the Middle East (which is starting to look a little like Eastern Europe after Solidarity took down the Polish government), that he was wrong about that. Bu the jury is still out on both questions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/12 "2005-04-04T01:32:05Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Well, THIS conservative Catholic has indeed re-evaluated his support for both based in part on the teachings of John Paul II. I am still in the process, but will probably eventually conclude that he is right about the death penalty, and, based on the apparent results in the Middle East (which is starting to look a little like Eastern Europe after Solidarity took down the Polish government), that he was wrong about that. Bu the jury is still out on both questions. And will the pronouncements of the next pope have any influence on your judgments? IIRC, the pope is considered infallible only when making official pronouncements on matters of doctrine and morals. When he talks about a specific non-Church policy questions like the Iraq War, he’s just one more celebrity putting his 2 cents in, even to Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/13 "2005-04-04T01:33:19Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Or, as Stalin asked with a sneer, “The Pope? How many battalions has he got?” Hey, don’t let the puffy pants fool you! Those Swiss Guards are some tough cookies! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/14 "2005-04-04T02:29:33Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > While I’m certainly glad you’re not going to sentence anyone to a gulag, aldiboronti, you’re the one who approvingly quoted a snide remark from a mass murderer. When you lie down with pigs you wake up covered in excrement, so to speak. The point is the pope has no real authority, and that is what Stalin was referencing when he made that remark. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/15 "2005-04-04T03:55:56Z")
Well, he does pretty well rule the Vatican City. Not much real estate, true, but… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/16 "2005-04-04T04:02:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > he’s just one more celebrity putting his 2 cents in, even to Catholics. Consider the revolt in Haiti in 1986. The pope had just been there and said “Thinks must change.” (“Fok sa change” in kreyol.) Those three words were written all over the country on walls and appeared on posters; it legitimated the revolt in many ways. Course, things haven’t changed much…the events of 1986 may not have been the exact outcome the pope wanted …but at least fat-ass Baby Doc is gone… ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/17 "2005-04-04T12:54:42Z")
> [@drhess](#): > > Consider the revolt in Haiti in 1986. The pope had just been there and said “Thinks must change.” (“Fok sa change” in kreyol.) Those three words were written all over the country on walls and appeared on posters; it legitimated the revolt in many ways. Course, things haven’t changed much…the events of 1986 may not have been the exact outcome the pope wanted …but at least fat-ass Baby Doc is gone… True. But Karl Marx and Voltaire and Thomas Paine were just as influential, if not moreso (Marx was alot more influential) meaning the pope is just an influential speaker. However in today’s society I do not know of any living Voltaire or Paine, or anyone like that. I know there is a push for human rights and democracy but I do not see anyone as the personified voice of this change. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/18 "2005-04-04T13:31:48Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > While I’m certainly glad you’re not going to sentence anyone to a gulag, aldiboronti, you’re the one who approvingly quoted a snide remark from a mass murderer. When you lie down with pigs you wake up covered in excrement, so to speak. Interesting. To quote Stalin brands one instantly an ‘approver’ of the old monster. Why, that’s almost … what’s the word I’m searching for? … ah, that’s it, Stalinist. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/19 "2005-04-04T13:55:11Z")
> [@drhess](#): > > Consider the revolt in Haiti in 1986. The pope had just been there and said “Thinks must change.” (“Fok sa change” in kreyol.) Those three words were written all over the country on walls and appeared on posters; it legitimated the revolt in many ways. Course, things haven’t changed much…the events of 1986 may not have been the exact outcome the pope wanted …but at least fat-ass Baby Doc is gone… Funny though, wasn’t Baby Doc the one Mother Teresa was friendly with? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519/20 "2005-04-04T14:41:27Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Or, as Stalin asked with a sneer, “The Pope? How many battalions has he got?” Charles Krauthammer has a superb [column](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23876-2005Apr3.html) on this today: > [@](#): > > Stalin could have said that only because he never met John Paul II. Within 10 years of his elevation to the papacy, John Paul II had given his answer to Stalin and to the ages: More than you have. More than you can imagine. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-have-any-tangible-authority-over-world-events/297519.md?page=2)