# Does the Pope still have to prove gender after the 'Pope' Joan instance?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 14, 2001, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342 "2001-11-14T17:04:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 12
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/1 "2001-11-14T17:04:33Z")
Do Popes still have to lift their robes for inspection? I find this quite interesting with a fringe of humour. Having just finished Donna Woolfolk Cross’ Pope Joan, I learned quite a bit about the Catholic Papacy that I had not previously known. It was amazing to read how a woman actually infiltrated the Roman Papacy. Is this just another huge Catholic Conspiracy? Debatable topic: What’s the foundation for women not becoming preists, the true **reason**? Does old-school gender inferiority have a role to play here? I wish I knew why I found this soo interesting, but I can not seem to get enough info on the topic…
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### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/2 "2001-11-14T17:21:20Z")
Is the Woolfolk book a history-type book or a fictionalization of the legend? I always thought the Pope Joan thing was never really proved, and that robe lifting was never necessary. I just can’t see someone saying “Whip it out, your Eminence.”
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### Author:  [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/3 "2001-11-14T17:26:20Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I learned quite a bit about the Catholic Papacy that I had not previously known.
Er, _cough_ , you learned quite a bit about a Catholic [Urban Legend](http://www.urbanlegends.com/religion/pope_joan.html) that you had not previously known. But–sorry–you learned nothing about the Papacy.
1. Pope Joan is an Urban Legend–folklore, not history.
[http://www.saint-mike.org/Library/Essays-JohnPaul/Pope\_Joan.html](http://www.saint-mike.org/Library/Essays-JohnPaul/Pope_Joan.html)
> [@](#):
>
> With that said, the MYTH of Pope Joan was that she “reigned” from 855-858. The problem with this is that Pope Benedict III happened to be on the Chair of Peter at this time.
>
> There were some anti-popes during this time period:
> John ended an alleged reign in January 844
> Anatasius was a pretender to the papacy from Aug-Sept 855 (he died in 880)
> Christopher was a pretender to the papacy from July or Sept 903 to Jan 904
>
> The REAL Popes during this time were:
> Gregory IV: 827 - Jan 844
> Sergius II: Jan 844 - Jan 27, 847
> St. Leo IV: Jan (Apr 10) 847- July 17, 855
> BENEDICT III: July (Sept 29) 855 - Apr 17, 858
> St. Nicholas I (the Great): Apr 24, 858 - Nov 13, 867
> Adrian II: Dec 14, 867 - Dec 14, 872
>
> No Joan in the crowd Pope or Anti-Pope!
>
> In addition there is NO EVIDENCE of this MYTH of Pope Joan in existence before the 13th Century.
1. Donna Cross’ novel _Pope Joan_ is a “novel”, i.e. “fiction”, and therefore not a reference work on the Papacy.
2. Therefore, I’m assuming that no, the papal candidates don’t really have to lift their robes and show their weenies to the College of Cardinals, that that’s just part of the legend.
Somebody else can deal with “why can’t women become priests?”
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### Author:  [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/4 "2001-11-14T17:33:57Z")
I believe the Pope Joan legend has been [debunked](http://www.britannica.com/heritage/article?content_id=138). This has to be one of the earliest known urban legends, and after all these centuries it is still going strong.
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### Author:  [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/5 "2001-11-14T17:48:27Z")
Well **Duck** I did know this was a novel. and the entire way thru it I thought that this was not based in fact. It was a fun read however. Thanks for the link. Very informative.
phlosphr-\> _looks around rather sheepishly_ _sincerely hopes the wife misses the post…_
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2001, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/6 "2001-11-14T18:36:14Z")
Please see [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=98862) for information on the issue of women as priests in the Roman Catholic tradition.
- Rick
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### Author:  [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2001, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/7 "2001-11-15T04:46:40Z")
If you’re interested in the papacy, you might be interested in a novel called, The Shoes of the fisherman" by Morris West.
It is a novel about a fictional pope, and I don’t know how accurate it is, but its a great story. And in it, IIRC, (its been a long time since I read it), the new pope does have to prove his gender.
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### Author:  [@Redboss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redboss)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2001, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/8 "2001-11-15T05:31:12Z")
Well, as this thread is so knowledgable, anybody want to comment on the “popes mustn’t be eunuchs, so there’s this special throne with a hole in the seat that a potential pope has to sit in, and bishops look under his robes to make sure he’s got balls” UL?
Cardinalboss
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### Author:  [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2001, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/9 "2001-11-15T08:35:06Z")
[Cecil’s](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_139.html) debunking. Looking for information on this subject led me to these boards.
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### Author:  [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/10 "2001-11-15T15:08:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Revtim \*
> \*\*I just can’t see someone saying “Whip it out, your Eminence.” \*\*
Uh, wouldn’t the correct form be “Whip it out, your Holiness?”
## Tris
“He deserves Paradise who makes his companions laugh.” ~ Koran ~
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2001, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/11 "2001-11-15T17:33:30Z")
Well, if the Cardinals elected one of their own, and he doesn’t become Pope until he passes the… er… member test, then “Your Eminence” is correct - he’s not the Pope yet.
🙂
- Rick
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### Author:  [@DMAAN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMAAN)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2001, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-pope-still-have-to-prove-gender-after-the-pope-joan-instance/93342/12 "2001-11-16T17:23:22Z")
Don’t the Cardinals see eachother naked in the shower room after the game?
What?
Oh. not those Cardinals.
d