# Does the Queen just make up titles **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 29, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171 "2011-04-29T16:11:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/41 "2011-04-30T06:55:51Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > …or Sir Alan Brooke becoming Viscount Alanbrooke. Wait, really? That’s just lame. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/42 "2011-04-30T07:50:27Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > Pope Paul III declared that this title was rescinded, but Parliament declared that the title was still valid and its use continued to the present day. I believe they invoked the ancient principle of _non recapio potestis_. (\* _pig-latin for_ “_no take backs_”) \* ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/43 "2011-04-30T08:15:56Z")
> [@a35362](#): > > Is duchy pronounced “ducky” or “dukey”? Or “Dutchy”? > [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > I say Dutchy. Me too. And the proper etiquette is to pass it on the left hand side. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/44 "2011-04-30T10:13:16Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Is there anything stopping her from making a Duke of New York or something? Well, there is a [Duke of Denver](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_denver), but it’s sort of a whimsical title. > [@aldiboronti](#): > > …but there’s nothing actually preventing her from creating a Princess of Mars, Duke of the Jovian Moons, Earl of Cincinnatti or even Duke of Earl (ah if only!) I thought the only requirements for being the Duke of Earl were a Chevrolet and a willing redhead… ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/45 "2011-04-30T10:27:28Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > And while she’s at it, could she give out titles for other Commonwealth countires? Could William eventually be the Duke of Toronto or the Earl of Canberra? Well I know a guy in Canberra whose name is Earl so that one’s out. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/46 "2011-04-30T10:30:34Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > and a willing redhead… So … Prince Harry? ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/47 "2011-04-30T10:36:57Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > How do titles from non-British sources work? The British monarch also holds titles like “Defender of the Faith”, given by a pope, and “Duke of Normandy”, given by a French king. Is it possible for British subjects to hold foreign titles, or is only the monarch allowed to? The title “Defender of the Faith” was indeed originally granted by the Pope, for Henry VIII’s good work in refuting heresy. But after the split with Rome the title was (re)granted to Henry by Act of Parliament, so in fact it has a statutory basis. The title “Duke of Normandy” has not been part of the English monarch’s titles since the fourteenth century or so. However, I seem to recall that a couple of formal instruments of Elizabeth I’s reign use the title in relation to grants in the Channel Islands. But then Disraeli was described in the 1878 Treaty of Berlin as “Prime Minister of England”, so don’t always believe what official documents say! The present royal style and titles **in relation to the United Kingdom** are: > [@](#): > > Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith (The reason for the dreadful word order is because it was originally a literal translation from Latin, and they’ve never replaced it with decent English.) > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Can a new duchy be created? What if one were independently wealthy enough to acquire an area of land in Britain? Could one then petition the crown to create a new duchy attached to that area? (If it’s easier, let’s assume that one already holds a dukedom.) The Crown does not have independent authority to grant rights over others, so an Act of Parliament would be required. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/48 "2011-04-30T10:54:00Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Wait, really? That’s just lame. Yopu’re just pissed she didn’t make you Baron Alansmithee! 😛 > [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > The title “Duke of Normandy” has not been part of the English monarch’s titles since the fourteenth century or so. However, I seem to recall that a couple of formal instruments of Elizabeth I’s reign use the title in relation to grants in the Channel Islands. But then Disraeli was described in the 1878 Treaty of Berlin as “Prime Minister of England”, so don’t always believe what official documents say! > > The present royal style and titles **in relation to the United Kingdom** are: > > (The reason for the dreadful word order is because it was originally a literal translation from Latin, and they’ve never replaced it with decent English.). Any chance you might chase down her official royal style in right of Guernsey and Jersey? That’s where the Normandy bit comes in, if anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/49 "2011-04-30T10:54:25Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > (The reason for the dreadful word order is because it was originally a literal translation from Latin, and they’ve never replaced it with decent English.) So there isn’t a “God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”? The UK just has the same god as everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/50 "2011-04-30T10:58:58Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Queen Victoria gave one of her sons the title of Duke of Edinburgh, which is now likely traditionally reserved for royals, since the Queen in turn gave that title to Prince Philip. I believe it was actually King George VI who made Philip Duke of Edinburgh, but your point still stands. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/51 "2011-04-30T11:40:12Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Any chance you might chase down her official royal style in right of Guernsey and Jersey? That’s where the Normandy bit comes in, if anywhere. British [i.e. UK] legislation relating to the monarchy automatically extends to the Crown dependencies and the British overseas territories. Thus, the royal style and titles in relation to the United Kingdom also apply to both Guernsey (and its dependencies) and Jersey. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/52 "2011-04-30T11:44:29Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > The Australian and Canadian governments have requested the Crown not to grant British honours to their nationals, as they feel it would ‘debase the currency’ of their own attempts at a domestic honours system. I’d be interested to see how that would work with someone who had dual citizenship with a Commonwealth country that didn’t have Imperial Honours and one that did- what would the Non-Imperial Honours country do if the Imperial Honours country decided to make the person Lord Someone Of [Place in Imperial Honours Country] if the person actually lived in a Non-Imperial Honours country? ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/53 "2011-04-30T11:47:07Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > British [i.e. UK] legislation relating to the monarchy automatically extends to the Crown dependencies and the British overseas territories. Thus, the royal style and titles in relation to the United Kingdom also apply to both Guernsey (and its dependencies) and Jersey. However, I can give you a better (more specific) answer in this particular case. [QUOTE=Royal Titles Act 1953] 1. The assent of the Parliament of the United Kingdom is hereby given to the adoption by Her Majesty, for use in relation to the United Kingdom **and all other the [sic] territories for whose foreign relations Her Government in the United Kingdom is responsible**, of such style and titles as Her Majesty may think fit having regard to the said agreement [i.e. between the Commonwealth governments], in lieu of the style and titles at present appertaining to the Crown, and to the issue by Her for that purpose of Her Royal Proclamation under the Great Seal of the Realm. [/QUOTE] (emphasis added) The royal style and titles I gave earlier were as given in the subsequent royal proclamation. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/54 "2011-04-30T12:01:01Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I’d be interested to see how that would work with someone who had dual citizenship with a Commonwealth country that didn’t have Imperial Honours and one that did- what would the Non-Imperial Honours country do if the Imperial Honours country decided to make the person Lord Someone Of [Place in Imperial Honours Country] if the person actually lived in a Non-Imperial Honours country? That would depend in part on the latter country’s laws. I’d imagine the only real weapon available would be non-recognition of the title, though. And perhaps dismissal from public service…? Even at the height of the British Empire, a United Kingdom peerage conferred nothing in any of the colonies other than precedence. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/55 "2011-04-30T12:11:36Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > Even at the height of the British Empire, a United Kingdom peerage conferred nothing in any of the colonies other than precedence. Oops, got this wrong! A peerage didn’t even confer precedence in a colony. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/56 "2011-04-30T13:09:57Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > However, I can give you a better (more specific) answer in this particular case. > (emphasis added) > The royal style and titles I gave earlier were as given in the subsequent royal proclamation. Thanks. So the “Duke of Normandy” bit is a sort of UL – she holds the Cnannel Islands by virtue of being heiress to the Dukes of Normandy (from William the Conqueror down until the title was dropped), but, like Luxembourg after 1806, they no longer fall under a title that has gone into desuetude? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/57 "2011-04-30T13:25:06Z")
What’s this about Canada and Australia trying to create their own peerages? How’s that project coming along? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/58 "2011-04-30T13:43:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What’s this about Canada and Australia trying to create their own peerages? How’s that project coming along? Do you mean the “[bunyip aristocracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunyip_aristocracy)”? I think that’s been given up as a lost cause. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/59 "2011-04-30T13:45:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What’s this about Canada and Australia trying to create their own peerages? How’s that project coming along? Not peerages, honours. Canada has had the [Order of Canada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Canada) for some time, which is intended as an honour for meritous citizens, but has no peerage and no want for one. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171/60 "2011-04-30T14:23:44Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I believe it was actually King George VI who made Philip Duke of Edinburgh, but your point still stands. good catch - thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-queen-just-make-up-titles/580171.md?page=4)