Does 'the soul' exist?

To Edlyn:

In the spirit of the quest for knowledge, as someone of old tells us, “The unexamined life is not worth living”; Edlyn, let us engage in this exercise:

The soul or spirit is a part of the human entity, yes?

Now, every part of the human entity has a role to play in the existence of the human entity and its operation, yes?

Everfy role of every part has a target for its role, yes?

The target is either within the human entity or without the human entity or both within and without, yes?

Let’s make as complete an enumeration of the targets as we can gather from our comprehension and apprehension of self and the world outside self, shall we?

O.K., you start the enumeration, tell us some targets of the role played by the soul or spirit in the human entity, will you?

Susma Rio Sep

I don’t have any myself, but I have seen proof of soul

Just a nitpick: I don’t dismiss spiritual matters, I merely withhold judgment on things for which there is no evidence; really the same thing as not believing in the Loch Ness Monster or Leprechauns. If some really good evidence showed up tomorrow, I just might change my mind.

Yes. it tells me to burn things.

-Jadoku himself

I think we do. I think what makes me, well, me, and makes you, you, is more than enviroment and some complex chemicals. Without a soul I think everyone would be like everyone else. What would make me laugh or cry would be the same for everyone.

Science can say that what makes someone cry is a chemical reaction, but what they are viewing is the reaction, not what started it…if that makes sense!

To maybe take a different approach - I think the evidence supporting reincarnation & past-life regression surely supports the theory of the soul. A lot of past-life regression literature comes to the conclusion that a person can have knowledge of his/her previous life they he COULD NOT HAVE KNOWN otherwise. Since the soul is the only possible connection between one’s previous life, and his current, this proves it’s existance. There is also literature describing persons leaving their bodies during dreaming, and reporting otherwise unknowable facts.

If anyone is interested in this angle, let me know, and I’ll be happy to do some research and provide some links.

I’ve always been aware of my own soul so I can’t imagine not living with that knowledge.

In fact, I can’t even understand the basis on which its existence could be disputed. I am aware of having an ego, desires that I act upon because of their relation to the public arena and my continued existence therein. And I’m also aware of deeper desires and drives, which have nothing to do with my membership in society yet also speak of me and my connection to the world.

To not have a soul? To never feel the simple pain of existence, or longings that have no object? You mean you people don’t get an answer when you pray? You’re not driven by mechanisms beyond your physical/emotional existence? You’ve never connected with a zing of truth, felt a shudder in your solar plexis that answered, or been comforted by a sense of presence when you could have been afraid? You’ve never let go of your ego? The Force has never been with you? Frankly that baffles me.

If we didn’t have souls, there wouldn’t be any reason to do things that aren’t just expedient & efficient. Art, music, sports, architecture, engineering - every human activity that can be done well, with beauty, reflects that. Yes, beauty is subjective - but a consensus isn’t really that hard to reach. Look at how expensive well-designed consumer goods are, clearly there’s a premium placed on them.

I disagree with your methodology, Susma Rio Sep. Logical arguments expressed in words are one way of knowing the world, but hardly the only way. Expecting them to explain spirituality in an empirical manner is like expecting a painting of food to feed you. Words are just a representation. If you wanted to know a spiritual life, I’d suggest you find a spiritual person to show you how. Or try the popular means - meditation, prayer, contemplation of beauty, service of humanity. Logic ain’t gonna get you there.

:smiley: Yeah, okay, blowero.

Wonderful input, fessie. I hope Susma Rio Sep will understand and not be offended that I will not discuss spiritual matters in the manner he/she wishes to do so. Your comments concerning this were right on.

Glad you got my point, Edlyn.:smiley:

I think that the thing which separates us from the animals is our concious awareness of ourselves and the world around us, and that the fundamental acheivement of this initial awareness is the observation that conditions in the world are not random, but that each effect we see has a cause. The realization of the law of cause and effect–impossible without consiousness–enables us to see that we ourselves can become “causes” of the effects we see. This is symbolized by our discovery of “tools”, by which we first use our awareness of reality to alter that reality.

I do think that all forms of life have souls, and this is something that I’m not sure if I can soundly prove. I think that the degree to which the soul is able to manifest itself fully depends a lot on the degree to which the physically evolved body of the species allows consciousness. It really does seem to me that consciousness itself is a very biological thing, which arises in the mind and which is preceded by certain nessesary physical properties, and I think that even a human body–which can’t, of course, go through the dramatic changes seen in a species as a whole over the eons–is better equipped for highest consciousness when it has physically and biologically become most fit. That’s the idea behind yoga and those things, isn’t it? Consciousness, which at its highest separates the human from the animal, is a vehicle for the expression of the soul, the bridge between the physical and the spiritual in probably all life.

If God is a big pool of liquid and individual living things are like so many of those metal tea balls with the holes in them, then I would say that the soul is the liquid contained within each porous ball. It is the point where the All becomes the Individual. I would say that although all souls are equal, and made of the stuff of God, all bodies do not equally manifest God, because of the thick filter of unconciousness that we can obvoiusly observe in many kinds of bodies. The human body certainly has its unconscious operations, but I would say that our finely developed consciusness makes us the best equipped for the full manifestation of our souls.

I realize that this post makes me seem obnoxiously Eastern, but I promise that, usually, I’m neither obnoxious nor Eastern. :slight_smile:

Nicely said!!

If indeed the difference between “soul” (that is, as a metaphysical entity) and “mind” (a conscious construct in “meatspace”, if you will) is as simple as the difference between a painting of food and food itself, then the question would not be nearly as interesting.

Your analogy is seriously flawed, for you have taken a comparison between two completely empirical things (the difference between “apple” and “painting of apple”) and used it to bolster your conception of logical immunity of the decidedly non-empirical. It’s as if one is positing the mere fact that something is non-empirical makes that thing impervious to the sharper edges of critical thought. I would argue instead that, even if there is no certain knowledge of any particular subject, we should at least attempt as much empiricism as we can bring to bear on the subject.

If the idea of logic being applied to souls seems absurb to you, it begs the question, why? Why shouldn’t the “soul” be subject to examination? And if it is found to be an unnecessary idea, or an idea in need of revision, why should it not be either revised or thrown out in favor of the alternatives?

After all, many intelligent people used to believe that the sun, stars, and planets revolved around the earth on crystal spheres. A fair segment of the population continued to believe this long after its usefulness as a theory had been exhausted.

To answer the OP, I doubt there is a soul, as I think it is far more likely that all those things we like to think about as “spiritual” can be (or will eventually be) described by psychology and a greater understanding of how the brain incorporates itself into consciousness.

Are there dangers in reductionism? Perhaps for those who see mostly negative connotations in connecting ourselves with the physical more than with the spiritual (or possibly imagined). Yet from my point of view, even if possible, the ideal of non-corporeal existence is at least potentially distracting and worst a panacea, for whatever lies beyond death, if anything, is a mystery. What we can see, what we can experience here and now–there is little reason to believe that it does not exist. As such, we have the ability, however small it might be, to change things here, to make an effect here, to improve the world here, regardless of what happens after. But if this world is only transient, these bodies mere hotels for immortal beings, of what importance are they?

Maybe there are such things as “souls” or “gods”, but even if there are, they do not seem to have any measurable impact on our lives unless we decide that they do. Perhaps for some people, such a belief enriches their lives. shrugs So be it. But for as much potential doubt as there is about any given afterlife, there is as much certainty that we are responsible for our little domains on the planet upon which we live and the other creatures we interact with there.

To me, the question is not so much whether souls exist, but rather what will people do with them even if they do?

mrblue92 You might be surprised to hear that in many ways I agree with the guts of your argument. I respect your skepticism towards the “free pass” for which the soul has been used in the history of religion-as-a-means-of-oppression, that whole “you’ll get yours in the afterlife” dogma.

However my personal experience is that the soul is an entirely appropriate means of connecting directly with the physical, a way of circumventing our interpretations of reality as citizens in favor of a direct, egoless experience. Hence its meaning is in its experience and not in the words used to describe it - that’s why my analogy, contrary to your opinion, rocks.:wink: I never said it couldn’t be examined; merely that logic isn’t the best way of gaining understanding. You don’t measure water with a yardstick, you use a cup (unless it’s flooding - oops, possible Noah connection, better back up).

My opinion is that we are, in fact, transient beings - renters of this human form. Which, to me, makes our responsibility all that much greater than if we attained actual “ownership”.

I’m gonna have to dig up cites for this, but I think you’ll find that science is bordering more and more on the mystical - now I don’t say that lightly, there are real scientists and psychologists in my family (plus a Masters of Divinity graduate) who will corroborate my assertion. As Arnold says, I’ll be back…

Aristotle I belive said something along the lines of us being an animal with the ability to reason. So far so good, and i can find little else for the seperation.

Souls would seem to be a metaphysical construct designed to explain processes that we are only now beginning to understand in terms of the makeup of the brain. I use brain rather than mind here because I am making an outright rejection of any sort of mind/body dichotomy. Lets call it a form of philsosophical materialism shall we :wink:

If one posits a soul, or external mind, one must then show the mechanism by which this has causal effects in the material world. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs right? So far, I have yet to see an independently verifiable, lab testable proof of any form of soul.

The soul also appears to be an immaterial object. Not like energy, which is measurable or has obvious phsycial effect, but something completely immeasurable, totally unable to be tested.

Furthermore, how does this immaterial object interact with the material world? To claim that it does not do so at all would make the entire argument moot, but somehow you must explain how it does interact.

I don’t know that that’s true. I do notice the occasional fanciful interpretation of science by journalists. Some writers have the unfortunate tendency to try to “spin” the cold data of a scientific discovery in a misguided attempt to make it more interesting to the reader, but that’s an error in interpretation, not a flaw in the discipline itself. I await your cites, but I wasn’t aware that science was any more “mystical” than it has ever been. And I certainly wouldn’t consider that to be an excuse to declare all modes of thought to be equal, thus putting faith on the same level as empiricism. If that’s where you’re going with this, I highly disagree.

fessie, perhaps a better analogy than food/picture of food would be real friend/imaginary friend. An imaginary friend might make you happy, might give you solace in times of need, but is still coming from within you. I also don’t believe in an egoless experience. Consider how different your outlook on the world is when you’re tired vs. when you are fresh. It all goes back to something physical, though the interaction of physical things gets really complicated some times.

It has been my observation that those who say that science is bordering on the mystical are those who don’t understand the science. (Or are scientists with so much invested in religion/mysticism that they draw unwarranted conclusions.) Psychologists are finding more and more connections between the body and the mind. Please name one mental or spiritual thing that has been proven to be independent of the body.

Hot diggities, I’m excited about this debate. I thought everyone thought they had a soul, it’s quite surprising to me to discover otherwise, particularly from people who write such fascinating posts. I accept from the start that we may never agree, but I’m tantalized at the prospect of what I might learn from this process.

I’ve dug up the book that provoked the conversations my husband and I were having re: science and religion back last year, which prompted my earlier remark; it’s The Mind of God by Paul Davies. Hubby (who holds a Ph.D. in molecular biology and is an environmental microbiologist) was the one reading it, so now I’m going to have to do so myself - this may take a few days.

Gotta say, too, that it cracks me up that you people won’t give yourselves a soul, but you have so much faith in science. And knowledge. I see science and knowledge as our lastest/best constructs to explain life - not as a fixed entity. Birds would be birds whether we named them or not, our creation of their humanly knowable identity has no effect on them. So while you can posit the validity of knowledge based on how it’s used, its efficacy - you can say the same thing about faith. Both of them are tools, neither of them exist independently of human beings. I won’t argue one to the exclusion of the other.

I can imagine you groaning at my elevation of various peoples who survived on faith. Our increase in knowledge gives us a certain leg up in some ways, but at an enormous cost, i.e. our increased ability to destroy ourselves. If humans survive as long with science (500 years?) as we did without it (4,500 years?), then we can talk.

UnwrittenNocturne I’ve thought that human beings were how the soul/external mind interacted with the world.

blowero bottom-line, we may already be at the agree-to-disagree point, although I agree w/you about whimsical journalists. What’s your view of chaos theory?

Voyager I’ll have to talk to my sister the psychologist in the next week or so. And I’ll look up some wise people and get back to you on that egoless experience; I’m not making that up & I’m sure other people have written about it more eloquently than I ever could.

Surprised? Nah. As a moderate, there’s no dearth of people who agree and disagree with me at the same time. :wink:

And if the soul is actually a subconscious manifestation of ego (or, perhaps more appropriately, id or superego)?

Then by what better experience should one use to gain understanding? And by whose standard? How can I tell who is right and who is wrong without using some form of logic? I don’t ask this to frustrate; I wish to be enlightened if I am wrong.

I will gladly agree that one must eventually place one’s faith in something as we can’t question every single thing we encounter in life. But if faith and reason are both necessary, there are obvious questions that come into play… First, how faithful are our reasonings? (In other words, is our logic inherently faulty?) Second, by what reason do we have faith in any particular explanation? Third, what utilitarian value does the knowledge system give? And finally, what are the virtues or vices that may be derived from that certain system?

I think if we fail to ask any of these questions at the fundamental level, then we risk deceiving ourselves. And I think that is just what happens when faith is allowed to override reason without some kind of potential check…

Which would (generally) lead me to ask, by what reason should I believe souls exist? Indeed, I once believed they did exist, but upon asking myself that question, I had to admit I could not provide myself with a compelling answer–the self-evident nature no longer held once I questioned hard enough. Your mileage may vary, of course…

The difference is, of course, that science has done things for mankind. What has faith ever done, if individual do-gooders that happen to be religious don’t count?

That something isn’t called science doesn’t mean that it isn’t science. At its heart, the scientific method is about seeing what works and what doesn’t, going with what works and discarding that which doesn’t. How did they build the pyramids? By sitting around hoping that Anubis would levitate the stones on top of each other? Nope, science. How did humans construct bows, arrows, and flint axes? By kneeling and praying until the weapons fell from the sky? Nope, science. Primitive proto-science, but science nonetheless. Virtually every single invention has been made as a direct result of some form of science, and for a very long time each new invention has stood on the shoulders of dozens of others.

Science has been with us for a lot longer than 500 years.

“Faith in science” - that’s an oxymoron. The scientific method is about proving or disproving a hypothesis through experimental observation. Faith is about believing a thing regardless of the evidence. To follow the scientific method, one must reject a proposition if it is not backed by the evidence. To have faith, one must believe a proposition no matter what. They are polar opposites. Were I to believe something in spite of evidence to the contrary, that would not be scientific.

But birds can be shown to exist independently of the mind. AS you said, giving them a name does not cause them to exist. In the same way, inventing the word “soul” does not cause souls to exist. Leprechauns have a name, but they do not exist. I have seen birds, and I know others who have seen them. Now on the other hand, suppose that the only thing I had ever heard about birds is that people have said “I’ve never seen a bird, but I know birds exist because I can feel their presence in my mind. If I sit really still for an hour, a strange feeling comes over me; I just know it means that birds exist. And sometimes birds appear in my dreams, so they must be real.” Were that the case, I would tend to doubt the existence of birds, pending discovery of any objective evidence.

Faith is efficacious in the sense that it may elicit positive feelings in people, and to the extent that people may carry out actions based on these positive feelings. But emotions are not the same as external reality. And I personally have no use for solipsism. If a thing exists only in my mind, but cannot be objectively verified, then it has not been shown to be a “real” thing.

And you don’t find it the slightest bit ironic that the only way we are currently communicating is due to that evil science?

I don’t know anything about it.