# Does the U.S. still need the Marine Corps? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2002, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251 "2002-04-24T00:24:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/101 "2002-05-05T01:53:56Z")
THANK YOU, **Turbo Dog** , that makes a ton of sense. . So it IS true that “all Marines are Riflemen first” and they even have a training scheme for it, but it is NOT technically accurate to say “any other MOS is secondary to 0311” . The Primary MOS IS the Primary MOS, but they inevitably are also _at least_ 0311-qualifiable. I will defer to the Board Jarheads as to how they want to “shorthand” that. If part of that very same training and indoctrination that makes them so stupendously suitable for _their_ mission (thus letting the other services pay attention to what _they_ do best) involves driving home the notion of “every Marine a 0311” as a way to motivate everyone right down to the mess clerk to be ready for action, and it works for them, then for me to try to get them to say they’re wrong is like for me to try and teach a bear to sing: It won’t succeed, and I will p\*ss off the bear. Y’all do still, however, need to switch to decaf or cut down on the raw meat 🙂 It IS a different paradigm… most evident when **kniz** sez that "if the Commandant says ‘every Marine…etc.’ _no Marine is going to listen to the contrary"_ (emphasis mine). ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/102 "2002-05-05T14:19:10Z")
**JRDelirious** as a former Marine who just ate some coffee grounds and a raw roast, I’m obligated to tell you that you can’t call us jarheads anymore. Someone figured out that you can actually put something in a jar. To shorthand the mess, the whole concept is that no matter what MOS you hold, all Marines are first and foremost, basic riflemen, even though your primary and secondary MOS may not be infantry. That is your purpose. You are expected to be able to operate in a combat area by performing security, area defense, and possibly be called up to be a line replacement. To say that all Marines are 0311, is in a sense, a reminder of that. All infantry Marines carry 0311 as a secondary MOS. All Marines know what an 0311 is. 0311 is a basic grunt. It’s probably the only MOS that is recognizable at a glance. Although it may be more technically accurate to say that all Marines are first and foremost a 0300, basic infantryman, 0311 is so well known and in the infantry, you start out as that. It is semantics really. All Marines are, at the core level, grunts. A grunt is an 0311. It’s basically a word game when you get really technical. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/103 "2002-05-05T15:09:50Z")
Okay, TG: On the DD214, exactly what did it say was the SMOS? ---
**Author:** ![Sgt.J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sgt.J](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sgt.J)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/104 "2002-05-05T15:36:13Z")
When I was in bootcamp our DI’s let us have the coffee in the MRE’s by putting the sugar, cream powder, and instant coffee crystals in our mouthths and chewing. I don’t even like coffee the regular way. Anyway… um, yeah, what **Turbo Dog** said. ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/105 "2002-05-05T15:53:24Z")
assuming that I am TG, the SMOS depends on the individual. A SMOS is the next most specialized job you held/hold. Generally, an 0311 will have a secondary MOS of 0300. If an admin clerk becomes an 0311, his SMOS will be that of admin, 0121. A new F-18 fire-control technician, 6357, will have an SMOS of 6300. In the event you screw up after boot camp and get booted out of the service after your first school, say admin, 0100, I would assume that the DD214 would list the PMOS as 0100 and no secondary simply because without being assigned to an infantry unit, you cannot hold an infantry MOS. But that is a guess. The hangup I’m seeing in here is the difference between a basic rifleman and a Rifleman. The difference between the two is about 2 additional weeks of practice and what you will be assigned to do. The USMC draws a distict line between what you are qualified to do, and what you are assigned to do. For instance, I became jump “qualified”, but because I did not hold an MOS that REQUIRED me to become jump qual’d, it is not a qualification, so I was not “jump qualified” in my record and I could not wear the wings on my uniform. If, afterwards, I had gone into a field that would have required it, I would have had to go to jump school to formally qualify. There was once an admin shortage in our unit and one of our guys was sent to the admin office to get OJT and do the job until an “actual” admin clerk arrived. After six months, he came back to us but was not “admin qualified” because he was not formally assigned by the USMC to be an admin clerk. Dunno if that helps or not. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/106 "2002-05-05T16:06:47Z")
So, what you’re really saying is that your prior post was in error. In fact, that you had made assumptions about what and how MOS, both Primary and Secondary, are assigned to a Marine. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/107 "2002-05-05T16:32:50Z")
_Information regarding the Parachutists Wings from an official source, the United States Marine Corps:_ [MCO 3500.20A](http://www.usmc.mil/directiv.nsf/bc9ae2674a92558d852569140064e9d8/4744c049b38f2baf85256af1005cf8fd?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,parachutist) > [@](#): > > 1. Insignia. Marines who have completed a CG, Training Command (C 472) approved basic parachuting course are eligible to wear the Basic Parachutist Insignia per MCO P1020.34. The Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia is authorized for wear by those Marines who have met the requirements of enclosure (2), paragraph 7. The Marine Corps only issues Navy and Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia to Marines. Marines who have completed a Naval Diving and Salvage Center course of instruction are authorized to wear a Navy or Marine Dive Insignia that represents the highest level of proficiency. You will note there’s nothing in there restricting a Marine who has completed the Parachutist training from wearing his **earned** insignia. From Enclosure (2), paragraph 7 (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > 1. Navy/Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia. Marines may wear the Navy/Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia when they have completed a USMC approved basic airborne course and fulfilled either of the following requirements this is not waiverable: > > a. A Marine, while assigned to an authorized T/O parachuting billet for a period of no less than 90 days, must complete five additional jumps. The five additional jumps must include at least two combat equipment day jumps, two combat equipment night jumps, and employ two or more types of military aircraft. > > b. Marines with prior service in another branch of the U.S. Armed Forces who has been assigned to an authorized (assigned by orders/receiving pay) parachuting billet, and who fulfills the Marine Corps criteria regarding the number, type, and frequency of parachute jumps listed above, is authorized to wear the Navy/Marine Corps Parachutist Insignia. > > **c. Complete one combat jump of any kind from any aircraft, whether or not in an authorized Navy/Marine Corps T/O billet.** Also: > [@](#): > > 1. Permissive Orders > > a. Whether or not a Marine is filling a parachutist and/or diver billet, it is to the Marine Corps advantage that all military parachutists, divers, jumpmasters and diving supervisors maintain their skills and proficiency to meet future Marine Corps requirements. All commanding officers and OIC are encouraged to afford qualified Marines the opportunity to maintain their qualifications when there is access to military parachuting/diving activities, and military duties permit. This last is an encouragement to all COs/OICs to help their Marines maintain Parachutist qualifications. Paragraph 5.a. obviously addresses the situation of a Marine not filling a parachutist billet. So, whoever (and I’m willing to bet it was a non-Parachutist) told you that you couldn’t wear your earned insignia wasn’t an informed Marine. Next time someone tells you your uniform is out of specs, ask “cite?” In the Navy, we’re fond of saying “Reference?” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/108 "2002-05-05T17:05:07Z")
_And now for more than you ever wanted to know about Military Occupational Specialties, again from an official source:_ [MCO P1200.7W Subj: MILITARY OCCUPATIONAL SPECIALTIES MANUAL (SHORT TITLE: MOS MANUAL)](http://www.usmc.mil/directiv.nsf/bc9ae2674a92558d852569140064e9d8/4744c049b38f2baf85256af1005cf8fd?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > 1. INFORMATION. The enlisted OccFlds are displayed in numerical sequence and the enlisted MOSs follow in numerical sequence within the OccFlds. You will notice that the MOS are divided into Occupational Fields (OccFlds). The Marine’s PMOS is not his SMOS and the Marine’s OccFld is not his PMOS. > [@](#): > > 1. MOS SYSTEM. The MOS system is composed of OccFlds and MOSs within each OccFld. > > 2. OccFld. The OccFld is identified by the first two digits of a four- > digit number and a descriptive title. The OccFld is a grouping of related MOSs. > [@](#): > > 1. MOS The following one’s important! > [@](#): > > 1. BASIC MOS’S. Each OccFld contains a basic MOS; e.g., MOS 0100 (basic administrative Marine). A basic MOB represents the entry level learner in an OccFld. It is assigned as a specific MOS in that field or upon being assigned for retraining, a Marine’s primary MOS (gunnery sergeant through private grades) will be changed to the basic MOS in the OccFld while in a retraining status. Basic MOSs will be assigned as > primary per MCO P1000.6E, ACTS Manual, chapter 1. That refers to the Marine getting the Basic MOS for the OccFld assigned as his PMOS until completion of retraining. It’s only his PMOS until he progresses beyone “the entry level learner in an OccFld.” > [@](#): > > 1. OCCUPATIONAL FIELD 03. INFANTRY Dang long; however, it does carry this little gem regarding the Career Progression for a Marine whose PMOS is 0311: > [@](#): > > # MOS is not retained as a primary MOS upon promotion to SSgt[…] > [@](#): > > 1. MOS 9962, Parachutist (SgtMaj/MGySgt to Pvt) > > ``` > a. Summary. A Marine who is trained to parachute from an aircraft. > > b. Requirements/Prerequisites > > (1) Complete a military parachute jump training course. > > (2) Maintain physical fitness specified by COMNAVMEDCOM standards > > c. Duties. > > (1) SgtMaj/MGySgt to Pvt: Utilizes the parachute as a means of entry into the objective area to accomplish missions appropriate to the billet assigned. > > ``` This part’s quite interesting (you’ll notice there’s no mention of 0311 here): > [@](#): > > 1. MOS 9971, Basic Marine with Enlistment Guarantee (MGySgt to Pvt) > > ``` > a. Summary. A Marine whose military qualifications and experience are not developed to be sufficient or adequate for qualification in other MOSs. > > b. Requirements/Prerequisites. This MOS will be assigned to > > ``` > > personnel enlisting under an enlistment options program or an enlistment incentive program (MCO 1130.53, MCO 1130.54, MCO 1130.55, and MCO 1130.57 apply as appropriate) > > ``` > c. Duties. As assigned. > > d. Related DOT Classification/DOT Code. No civilian equivalent. > > ``` Okay, NOW do you believe that it’s a myth that “every Marine isa 0311 first?” ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/109 "2002-05-05T20:19:46Z")
As far as parachute devices, the information you posted is correct and matches what I have said. You have to go through the assigned course AND either serve in a parachute required billet or have been in a parachute billet from another branch of service. The permissive orders part is not applicable to ALL Marines. It is for qualified parachutists maintaining their qualification. To be a qualified parachutist, you have to meet the requirements of para. 7. If you have ever served in a billet that requires jumping, you are authorized to wear the device forever. If you haven’t, you can’t. It’s as simple as that. Pistol qualification badges are the same way. You’ll notice that not all Marines wear one, while they all have a rifle badge. If you qualify with the pistol, great, and it commonly occurs when requaling at the rifle range if time allows. However, if you have never been required to qualify with a pistol, you cannot wear a pistol qualification badge. As far as the MOS’s, I don’t know what to tell you. My secondary MOS has two O’s in it. So do a lot of my coworkers who were Marines. And there is no myth about who is and isn’t an 0311. If you went through ITS and are assigned to an infantry unit, you are an 0311, a Rifleman. If not, you are not an 0311, but a basic rifleman. Although many times the two are used interchangeably, technically it is not correct. I thought I made that clear earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/110 "2002-05-05T20:46:47Z")
Okay. You’re telling me the Directives from the USMC aren’t correct? That’s what’s known as wrong. The governing directives are, by definition, governing directives. I don’t care if “many times the two are used interchangeabley” when doing so is wrong. It’s just wrong. It’s not “technically incorrect.” It’s not “sort of right.” It’s wrong. Not all Marines are 0311. Just because the ill-informed/misinformed/deluded want to call themselves something they’re not, that doesn’t make it okay. There are those who like to call themselves Sergeant who’ve never advanced beyond Private. Then there are those who like to say they’ve either a PMOS or SMOS of 0311 when they don’t. In either case, it’s not “technically incorrect,” it’s just wrong. Do all Enlisted Marines go through Basic Training, yes. Do all Marines go through 0311 training? Apparently not. “Using the two interchangeably” is like saying “When you join the military you become the property of the government.” Many people are fond of perpetuating that myth. It’s still a myth. I’ll go with the actual governing directives for determining the validity of any particular statement about something governed by that particular directive. And the “you” in my last posting above was the generic “you” addressed to all those who like to perpetuate the myth. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/111 "2002-05-06T01:23:55Z")
Anybody else notice that this thread is like watching a Jesuit and a Benedictine argue about some obscure passage in St. Augustine, or tax lawyers talking about corporate restructuring. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/112 "2002-05-06T02:11:33Z")
Outstanding! Excellent! Above average! I forget the other categories of desirable eval traits! That last posting of yours, Spavined Gelding, just made my day! But, please, which of the two contests is Evil vs. Evil? [sub]Actually, I think this is one of the more friendly discussions about military minutia this board’s ever seen.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/113 "2002-05-06T02:13:24Z")
And why did I post that I forget the other categories? Because I did forget. Plus, this gives someone a chance to post the governing directive for that subject. (Not really, but it’s a good excuse.) ---
**Author:** ![Sgt.J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sgt.J](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sgt.J)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/114 "2002-05-06T04:13:15Z")
**Monty** here’s the deal: As per the CMC, all Marines must successfully graduate Marine Combat Training after bootcamp and before MOS school. That’s the formal training school that trains marines to be a Rifleman. That isn’t in question, it’s a fact. The CMC said it, and I cited it. He can say all Marines who piss in a can are qualified to be Marine Band Flutists. It’s his call to make. As I posted what seems like twenty times, we are all Riflemen, we just say 0311 as shorthand. Fine, we’re NOT 0311, it’s semantics. We are all trained as infantry rifleman in a four week course in San Onofre(sp?) CA called “MCT”. The long and short of the point in question was my assertion that the Corps, unlike the Army trains Everyone to be an infantry rifleman. I said “0311” when I should have said “rifleman” ok fine, it doesn’t change the point, and I believe I’ve backed up that gist of that point by establishing the existence and purpose of MCT. I spent 8 years in the Corps and will always be a Marine, and even I don’t care this much. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/115 "2002-05-06T04:55:03Z")
I should, maybe, be promoted ahead of my contemporaries? There is a line I never saw on any of my efficiency reports. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/116 "2002-05-06T05:45:18Z")
I care about fact, Sgt. J. Fact is what saves some folks lives. Fact is that the Army trains everyone in Basic Combat Training and the Marines train everyone in MCT (now that’s Marine Combat Training, is it not?). Fact is that the governing directives directly contradict your sloppy “shorthand.” Sloppy’s not good. Your assertion is correc that the Army doesn’t train everyone to be a Marine. The Army, though, does train everyone in BCT. Now, why can’t you accept the proven fact, proven by the governing directives, authorized by the CMC, of course, which shows the “shorthand” to be wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Sgt.J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sgt.J](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sgt.J)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/117 "2002-05-06T15:40:18Z")
posted by **Monty** > [@](#): > > Now, why can’t you accept the proven fact, proven by the governing directives, authorized by the CMC, of course, which shows the “shorthand” to be wrong? posted by me > [@](#): > > we are all Riflemen, we just say 0311 as shorthand. Fine, we’re NOT 0311 > [@](#): > > I said “0311” when I should have said “rifleman” ok fine > [@](#): > > “it’s technically more appropriate to say “Rifleman” than 0311” (the above is me quoteing myself from **another** post wich I will leave out.) Are you even reading the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/118 "2002-05-06T15:44:53Z")
Yes. Apparently you’re not reading the thread, nor even your own postings. Scroll up and see what I said about “technically incorrect.” ---
**Author:** ![Sgt.J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sgt.J](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sgt.J)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/119 "2002-05-06T17:25:55Z")
I certainly did, see it, that’s why my last post (before the recap) said: > [@](#): > > Fine, **we’re NOT 0311** _snip_ > > \*\*I said “0311” when I should have said “rifleman” \*\* I’ve conceded that I used the wrong term time and time again. That doesn’t dispute my assertion that the Marine Corps puts more emphasis on training all of its service members in basic infantry skills than the Army. Basic training in the Marines is 13 weeks, with the entire 2nd phase (of 3) being spent in the field infantry training, then 4 weeks of MCT devoted to Infantry Rifleman training. On top of that phase one and three also deal with skills necessary for hand-to-hand and armed combat. Show me comparable infantry training for EVERY person in the Army. You can’t. I, like you, have been in the Army. I’m not looking at this from completely one-sided experience. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251/120 "2002-05-06T17:35:39Z")
Okay, Sgt. J; you had to stave off the joke I was just dying to make. Drat. After perusing that lengthy MCO regarding MOS, I’ve come to the conclusion that the USMC is a needed asset and that the Marine MOS, although similar in function, to comparable Army MOS are sufficiently different to require a separate Corps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-still-need-the-marine-corps/105251.md?page=7)