# Does the U.S. violate Russia's/China's airspace or engage in hacking activities on a similar scale? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 21, 2024, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565 "2024-09-21T19:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Caribbean\_cruiser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caribbean_cruiser/32/9349_2.png) [@Caribbean\_cruiser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caribbean_cruiser)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/1 "2024-09-21T19:52:11Z")
News stories often bring word of the latest Russian (and more recently, Chinese) violations of U.S. airspace around Alaska – and of Russian and Chinese fighter jets buzzing U.S. Navy ships in international water. Other reports reveal widespread hacking of U.S. companies and government agencies by computer experts in those countries. I am aware the U.S. Navy transits the Black Sea and Taiwan Strait in accordance with international law, but do we engage in similar airspace violations or counter-hacking activities in those countries, on a similar scale? I understand the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and NSA are involved in monitoring Russia/Chinese hacking. Over the years, these U.S. agencies have trumpeted their offensive capabilities. Is there any evidence they fire back at hackers or agencies in those countries? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/2 "2024-09-21T20:05:58Z")
Russia has been sending aircraft down along the border near Alaska for decades. We have been doing the same thing to them, also for decades. In fact, the Soviets shot down Korean Air Lines flight 007 in the 1980s because of two main reasons. First, we had been flying one of our spy planes in the area (a lot of our spy planes are based on the same basic airframe as airliners), and the Korean flight and our spy plane’s flight happened to be close to each other. Second, the KAL flight accidentally went off course and into Soviet territory. The Soviets got confused, and thought that our spy plane had flown into their territory, and shot it down. Only later did they realize that they had actually shot down an off-course civilian airliner. So yes, we send spy planes down Russia and China borders constantly. Maybe not daily, but probably several times per week, and they do the same to us. I haven’t heard of us aggressively buzzing their planes or ships, so I don’t know if we also engage in that sort of behavior. We are sending a lot of drones around the Black Sea and other areas near the Russia/Ukraine conflict. And, as you noted, we routinely send ships and aircraft through areas that China claims as their own. As for hacking, there is some good information in this wikipedia article: > **[Cyberwarfare in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberwarfare_in_the_United_States)** > > Cyberwarfare is the use of computer technology to disrupt the activities of a state or organization, especially the deliberate attacking of information systems for strategic or military purposes. As a major developed economy, the United States is highly dependent on the Internet and therefore greatly exposed to cyber attacks. At the same time, the United States has substantial capabilities in both defense and power projection thanks to comparatively advanced technology and a large military budg... ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/3 "2024-09-21T20:26:20Z")
Hacking, don’t know - that would probably be very classified. But as for airspace, AFAIK, the United States has always been careful to stay out of the 12-mile water/air border that marks Chinese airspace. The last time an American warplane ever did anything close to violating Chinese airspace was when that US Navy EP-3 Aries spy plane had to land on Hainan Island, and that was an emergency landing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/4 "2024-09-21T20:44:26Z")
Obviously there have been some cases of US spyplanes violating Russian airspace: The U2 incident was one such. That might be the only one that’s actually known, but then, there’s a selection effect, here: Any actual successful spy mission wouldn’t be known. I’d be shocked if there weren’t more, though. We spent a lot of money on the SR-71 for something, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/5 "2024-09-22T10:58:19Z")
I know the OP asked about airspace, not the seas, but perhaps it’s of interest here: The US Navy runs a [Freedom of Navigation Program](https://policy.defense.gov/Portals/11/DoD%20FON%20Program%20Summary%2016.pdf?ver=2017-03-03-141350-380) (DoD pdf). Essentially, it consists of sending ships into waters claimed by another state as territorial (but regarded as international by the US) and perform some act there that is prohibited in another country’s territorial waters. The idea is to actively protest against the claim and assert the international status of the area in question. Whether it’s a violation depends on your view about the “correct” status of the waters. ---
**Author:** ![Humbagger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Humbagger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humbagger)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/6 "2024-09-22T11:50:17Z")
> [@Caribbean\_cruiser](#): > > News stories often bring word of the latest Russian (and more recently, Chinese) violations of U.S. airspace around Alaska News stories may be saying so, or you may have misunderstood them, but this is incorrect. I cannot find a single report of an actual violation. This is not surprising, given it could be considered an act of war, and the US would be in their right to shoot down these aircraft. Instead, what has been happening is foreign aircraft approaching the airspace, and then being intercepted by US aircraft. “Intercepted” being the technical term for almost scratching the other guys paintwork. > [@Caribbean\_cruiser](#): > > but do we engage in similar airspace violations Provocations of the kind you mentioned above - all the time. The pentagon has released footage of more than 180 intercepts in recent years, meaning that at least 180 times China considered the presence of these aircraft a provocation. This is not something new either - the Reagan administration for example liked to play mind games, sending bombers or fighters straight at Soviet airspace, and turning away only at the last moment. [This article](https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/able-archer-83-did-a-nato-exercise-almost-escalate-to-nuclear-war/) claims there were actual violations of airspace as well. > [@Velocity](#): > > But as for airspace, AFAIK, the United States has always been careful to stay out of the 12-mile water/air border that marks Chinese airspace. What exactly constitues Chinese airspace is of course something of an issue in recent times. Apart from that, China has claimed the intrusion of multiple US spy balloons in recent years, as reported in [this NY Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/13/us/politics/ufo-spy-balloon-china.html) (not pay walled for me). The same article claims another US balloon was shot down in 1974. Going further back, there were multiple U2 spy missions over China, with several shot down - in other words, clear and deliberate violations of sovereign airspace. > [@Chronos](#): > > spyplanes violating Russian airspace: The U2 incident was one such. That might be the only one that’s actually known A quick read of the U2 Wikipedia page reveals that about a dozen or so overflights are public knowledge. The incident on May 1st, 1960 merely was the moment when Eisenhower had to publicly admit to these missions, as well as to lying about them. Notably, he refused to actually apologise to Khrushchev for this. Finally, in the 1950s there was Project Genetrix - hundreds of spy ballons overflying the Soviet Union and China, with a cover story of them being weather balloons… > [@Caribbean\_cruiser](#): > > counter-hacking activities in those countries That NY Times article I linked above also states that the NSA has intruded into the networks of Huawei, and tracked Chinese soldiers moving nuclear weapons. Those EP-3 spy planes, are also essentially flying listening stations. > [@Caribbean\_cruiser](#): > > Is there any evidence they fire back at hackers or agencies in those countries? I don’t know, although with this kind of warfare, the first rule is not to let anybody know who performed the attack. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/7 "2024-09-22T12:30:47Z")
> [@Humbagger](#): > > given it could be considered an act of war, and the US would be in their right to shoot down these aircraft. Sorry for being so blunt, but both of these statements are just nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/8 "2024-09-22T12:59:10Z")
To elaborate on this: One of the key objectives of international law is to contain the risk of armed conflict, not to escalate it. That’s why the law is reluctant in accepting things as a justification for resorting to violence against another country. By far not every illegal act is sufficient to meet this threshold. Sending a plane into another country’s airspace is illegal, for sure, but short of engaging in violent acts it’s very unlikely to qualify as an armed attack (aka “act of war”). ---
**Author:** ![Caribbean\_cruiser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caribbean_cruiser/32/9349_2.png) [@Caribbean\_cruiser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caribbean_cruiser)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/9 "2024-09-22T13:23:47Z")
> [@Humbagger](#): > > News stories may be saying so, or you may have misunderstood them, but this is incorrect. I cannot find a single report of an actual violation. This is not surprising, given it could be considered an act of war, and the US would be in their right to shoot down these aircraft. > Instead, what has been happening is foreign aircraft approaching the airspace, and then being intercepted by US aircraft. “Intercepted” being the technical term for almost scratching the other guys paintwork. **I am broadening my OP to include intercepts near airspace in the U.S. and NATO countries. “Near” enough to scramble interceptors.** Also, near enough to Russian airspace. I know these are imprecise terms. Humbagger, I found several recent violations from Russian aircraft, some involving the U.S., others in Europe. We don’t need to go back 50 or 60 years. I’m talking about recent activity. ## [NORAD intercepts Russian TU-95 Bear, Chinese H-6 bombers .](https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/24/politics/norad-russian-chinese-bombers-alaska/index.html) ## [Map Shows Russia’s Probing NATO Borders With Airspace Violations](https://www.newsweek.com/nato-members-finland-sweden-say-russia-military-planes-violated-airspace-1913494) ## [Two NATO members say Russian drones violated their airspace](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-drone-romania-e793c35a0df1679cfe89ac6612706c87) ## [Russian Su-24 Violates Swedish Airspace For The First … - The Aviatio](https://theaviationist.com/2024/06/15/russian-su-24-violates-swedish-airspace/) ## [Violations of non-combatant airspaces during the Russian invasion of](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violations_of_non-combatant_airspaces_during_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine) ## [Canada says Russian airline violated its airspace](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/russia-ukraine-news-live-updates-n1290145/ncrd1290158) ## [Estonia says Russian planes violate its airspace, again](https://apnews.com/article/estonia-europe-russia-government-and-politics-0d8093ef24df05d587dd9b0f06352762) ## [Europe’s East Seeks NATO Response to Russia Airspace Violations](https://www.yahoo.com/news/europe-east-seeks-nato-response-125233225.html) ## [Poland demands explanation after accusing Russia of violating its airs](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/24/europe/poland-activates-aircraft-russia-attacks-lviv-intl/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/10 "2024-09-22T17:06:10Z")
> [@Caribbean\_cruiser](#): > > **I am broadening my OP to include intercepts near airspace in the U.S. and NATO countries. “Near” enough to scramble interceptors.** Also, near enough to Russian airspace. I know these are imprecise terms. That’s so common that it hardly even merits mention in the news. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/11 "2024-09-22T17:59:52Z")
Yes, Qihoo360 which is generally regarded as a credible source in the cybersecurity realm has claimed to uncover an 11 year effort by the CIA to hack into a variety of Chinese systems. > **[CIA Hackers Accused Of 11-Year Attack In New Chinese Cyber Report: This Is...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/03/03/new-chinese-cyber-report-just-accused-cia-of-11-year-attack-this-is-whats-behind-the-report/)** > > Security researchers have published stark new claims about a CIA campaign against Chinese companies and "hundreds of overseas airlines." edit: 2 years later, they also made a separate claim uncovering NSA hacking attempts into Chinese systems: > **[Exclusive: China a main target of US NSA cyberattacks, with key...](https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1253697.shtml)** > > The US' National Security Agency (NSA) has been launching cyberattacks against 47 countries and regions for a decade, with China's government departments, high-tech companies and military-related institutes among the key targets, the Global Times... The unusual thing about the reports was that it’s one of the few times China’s elected to make such information public but people who have combed through it have inferred that this is just one of the many detection attempts the Chinese have made but have elected to keep the rest of them under wraps since there’s no benefit in revealing sources and methods. If you’re looking for sourcing from a purely US realm, slightly different from hacking but Reuters has reported that the US Military was behind a vaccine misinformation campaign in the Phillipines designed to make citizens there wary of taking the Chinese vaccines and contributed to a measurable increase in overall vaccine hesitancy and some statistical number of excess deaths [https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-covid-propaganda/](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-covid-propaganda/) I will note though that even though I knew the exact story I wanted to find, it was almost impossible to pull up the US hacking China story since every combination of search queries I could think to try would _only_ return to me stories of China hacking the US. It took me remembering the name of the actual company making the claim before I was able to pull this story out of the depths so anything else that isn’t written _from_ a Western perspective can very easily be memory holed by Western biased algorithms. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2024, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/12 "2024-09-23T01:25:24Z")
> [@Caribbean\_cruiser](#): > > **I am broadening my OP to include intercepts near airspace in the U.S. and NATO countries. “Near” enough to scramble interceptors.** Also, near enough to Russian airspace. I know these are imprecise terms. You do have to be more precise when discussing airspace. If you look at the first story you linked to. > [@](#): > > The North American Aerospace Defense Command intercepted two Russian and two Chinese bombers flying near Alaska Wednesday in what a US defense official said was the first time [the two countries](https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/11/china/nato-china-russia-ukraine-intl-hnk/index.html) have been intercepted while operating together. > > The bombers **remained in international airspace in Alaska’s Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ)** and were “not seen as a threat,” according to a statement from NORAD. > > The US and Canada, which together comprise NORAD, intercepted the Russian TU-95 Bear and Chinese H-6 bombers. The aircraft **did not enter US or Canadian sovereign airspace** , NORAD said. ADIZ are no different things and soveriegn airspaces. > [@](#): > > An **air defense identification zone** ( **ADIZ** ) is a region of [airspace](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace) in which a country tries to identify, locate, and control [aircraft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft) in the interest of [national security](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security).[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_defense_identification_zone#cite_note-Abeyratne-1) It is declared unilaterally[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_defense_identification_zone#cite_note-2) and may extend beyond a country’s territory to give the country more time to respond to possibly hostile aircraft.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_defense_identification_zone#cite_note-WSJNov13-3) The concept of an ADIZ is not defined in any international treaty and is not recognized by any international body. These are not violations of US airspace. The last story is a link to an actual violation. > [@](#): > > “On March 24 at 4:23 a.m., there was a violation of Polish airspace by one of the cruise missiles launched tonight by the long-range aviation of the Russian Federation,” the Operational Command of the Polish armed forces said on X. > > “The object flew into Polish [air]space near the village of Oserdow (Lublin Voivodeship) and spent 39 seconds in it,” Operational Command said. “It was observed by military radar systems throughout its flight.” They have to be treated differently. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2024, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/13 "2024-09-23T01:56:20Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Essentially, it consists of sending ships into waters claimed by another state as territorial (but regarded as international by the US) and perform some act there that is prohibited in another country’s territorial waters. Good point. Are we talking China’s recognized airspace or their claimed airspace that include Taiwan (I believe) and their manufacured Spratley Islands? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2024, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/14 "2024-09-23T02:08:56Z")
China’s claimed airspace certainly includes Taiwan, given that their claimed landspace includes it. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2024, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/15 "2024-09-23T03:33:13Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Good point. Are we talking China’s recognized airspace or their claimed airspace that include Taiwan (I believe) and their manufacured Spratley Islands? China stops short of Taiwan’s contiguous zone although the send military jets into Taiwan’s ADIZ almostly daily at times. From an earlier [report](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/china-military-incursions-inch-closer-taiwan-sources-say-2024-05-15/) this year: > [@](#): > > Dozens of Chinese fighter jets, including J-16s and J-10s, have crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait since late April, and some circled near Taiwan’s contiguous zone; they were tracked by air defence radars and driven away by Taiwanese aircraft, the government reports show. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2024, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/16 "2024-09-23T06:21:49Z")
During the Cold War, West Germany would hold the sessions of the electoral college that chooses its president in West Berlin, as an assertion of its claim that that city was part of West Germany. The Soviets would protest this by flying fighter jets, at supersonic speeds, above West Berlin during these sessions, to assert their view that West Berlin was a special entity subject to the jurisdiction of the Four Powers throughout the entire city. The special status of Berlin as an occupied city under Allied control lasted from 1945 until 1991. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2024, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/17 "2024-09-23T09:47:27Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I know the OP asked about airspace, not the seas, but perhaps it’s of interest here: The US Navy runs a [Freedom of Navigation Program](https://policy.defense.gov/Portals/11/DoD%20FON%20Program%20Summary%2016.pdf?ver=2017-03-03-141350-380) (DoD pdf). Essentially, it consists of sending ships into waters claimed by another state as territorial (but regarded as international by the US) and perform some act there that is prohibited in another country’s territorial waters. The idea is to actively protest against the claim and assert the international status of the area in question. Whether it’s a violation depends on your view about the “correct” status of the waters. Ships on the ocean are understood to have a right of **[innocent passage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_passage)** through territorial waters, but they’re generally expected to move expeditiously toward their destination. The interesting thing about freedom of navigation operations (**[FONOPS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_navigation)**) is that, in order to make it clear that they’re exercising freedom of navigation in international waters rather than innocent passage through territorial waters, the FONOPS participants deliberately move slowly, zig-zag around, or stop and have a picnic, even while being harassed by ships of the nation making those spurious territorial claims. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/18 "2024-09-24T20:49:37Z")
> [@Humbagger](#): > > Finally, in the 1950s there was Project Genetrix Interesting to see this was built by a division of General Mills, the breakfast cereal company. Reminds me of the Ball Corporation who make those glass canning jars. I had occasion to look up their entry in the Thomas Register years ago.It is a very large listing but to paraphrase part of it: …“Home canning products and … orbital-based weapon platforms…” ---
**Author:** ![Humbagger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Humbagger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humbagger)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2024, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/19 "2024-09-24T21:54:16Z")
> [@Caribbean\_cruiser](#): > > Humbagger, I found several recent violations from Russian aircraft, some involving the U.S., others in Europe. As others have already pointed out, none of these were a violation of US airspace. However, violations seem quite common for the airspaces of other NATO countries bordering Russia. Looking the other way, I found [this article](https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/2024/07/21/1051239-bombardirovschikov) listing intercepts of 2 B-52 bombers on 21st of July, of a P-8A reconnaissance plane on 10th of July and of two B1 bombers on the 24th of March over the Barents Sea. You’ll note that these weren’t violations, and that the article is by Russian newspaper Vedomosti. I draw two conclusions from this - one, the bigger your country and military, the less likely it is someone will violate your airspace. Two, the ones doing the violating seemingly are seldom inclined to issue press releases, in contrast to those feeling violated. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-the-u-s-violate-russias-chinas-airspace-or-engage-in-hacking-activities-on-a-similar-scale/1007565/20 "2024-09-24T21:59:13Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > Interesting to see this was built by a division of General Mills, the breakfast cereal company. Reminds me of the Ball Corporation who make those glass canning jars. I had occasion to look up their entry in the Thomas Register years ago.It is a very large listing but to paraphrase part of it: …“Home canning products and … orbital-based weapon platforms…” Reminds me of a cartoon I saw many years ago that said the life of the average US soldier depends on the lowest bidder - and featured a sketch of a GI paratrooper, staring with some concern at the packed parachute in his hands conspicuously labeled “ **FLOYD’S BAIT AND AEROSPACE SYSTEMS** ”.